TargetTalk

Unnessary response. Hell, I am a folksy good old boy. Just what are you ? I also shoot high power rifle , Small bore 4p and 3p, NRA pistol out door and indoor. Free pistol , rapid fire and the old centerfire int pistol course. In addition I shot my way on to the European US Army rod and gun club team to the German Jeager matches. That included shotgun running target and three position with a hunting rifle. During my military career I also shot people.Another of the SST group just showed up. Thats Steve Swartzs Trols for the uninformed. Good Shooting Bill Horton

In other words you have no experience with regards to what your talking about. You've never shot any international style pistol. I'm glad you now have made that clear. You'd think someone of your age would have grown up enough to avoid the school yard name calling.

Its quite a shock to find that someone who writes as well as you do that can't read. I made the all army team in free pistol and fired on the team under coach Pullem in 1967, Competed for position on the Int center fire team the year Bill Blankenship won the world championship and again the year that TD Smith set the now broken record. Trained for rapid fire with James McNally, [Father of John McNally] You do know of him don't you ?For several years. Hope this helps. Good Shooting Bill Horton

For Fred B, sorry for seeming to ignore your post about working to perfect the arm raise in rapid fire and sport pistol. I had the same problem until Bill Blankenship suggested that I start slowing the raise of the pistol sooner and starting the trigger pressure before reaching the eye to target line. I had to make several adjustments on that point until I could arrive at the target in a controlled manner. The shot would fire in less than a second after stablizing the hold in the aiming area. I have no idea if this concept will help you but it did wonders for me. Try it you may like it. Good Shooting Bill Horton

2650 Plus wrote:...the year that TD Smith set the now broken record

I thought TD's record was unbroken.

Spencer

Spencer wrote:

2650 Plus wrote:...the year that TD Smith set the now broken record

I thought TD's record was unbroken.

So did I.

2650 Plus wrote:...working to perfect the arm raise in rapid fire and sport pistol. ..I start slowing the raise of the pistol sooner and starting the trigger pressure before reaching the eye to target line.

Bill,

My sport is disabled Sport Pistol. I think that your comment holds in spades for my event.

Sport and rapid are quite different in the time allowed for the first shot. In Rapid, you have to get off the shot as part of a five shot four second string. In Sport, you have three seconds for the one shot.

Therefore, in Rapid there is no question of adjusting your aim. You have to come straight to the firing point with pressure on the trigger and let go. The problem is people don`t put on the brakes soon enough and go past the line of aim. And that is what you have just said: Put on the brakes sooner. And I would add, put on the brakes smoothly, so that the end of the raise ad the stabilization of the gun are one thing.

Now the three seconds of Sport Pistol/center fire might lead people to the notion that they have time to raise fast, stop and adjust. My experience is that the same technique should be used, only slower, and hopefully even more accurately than with Rapid Fire.

Now this raises a question I would like your advice on. In both of these sports, you raise straight to the firng point from below. Ideally, you lock into your very best line of shot. But most everybody speaks of raising over the bull in slow fire. and then coming back down. I like to do the same as in Rapid, I just go straight to the line I intend to shoot on. I find that any mvement down from my lock makes the whole thing wobbly. If I have to adjust, I go a smidgen lower then I want and then tighten back UP.

Is this a fatal mistake, or do other people do this too?

Thanks for your help,

Gordon

Gordon, I like many of the other shooters you describe go above the aiming area in precision . I can't remember ever trying to shoot slow fire by just rising to the aiming area and stopping. The downward movement is a way of relaxing muscles that I don't need to use for these events. However the German shooters do the rise to the 'seeing line ' and stop the way you describe your technique. I must admit they are awfully good with both AP and SP. Its been several years since I shot in Germany so I would not want to indicate how they are shooting RF . I just don't know But one of their shooters is really close to the top of the heap. I left before he rose to prominence and never got to shoot against him. I'm sorry that I can't be of more help but I only feel competent to describe the way I shoot myself. Good Shooting Bill Horton

Bill,

I will keep expeimenting with both methods and see what the results are over time. The advantage of the straight raise is that I spend so much time doing it in the duello (rapid) stage. I therefore tend to go right to the best spot in precision, and feel like I am wasting time and breath with the over-the-bull move.

On the other hand, after a second or two, the pistol has a tendancy to follow gravity down with that bit of relaxation you mention. Maybe best for me would be to line up just a little high, like one ring perhaps, and anticipate just enough slack in the machine after that to end up at the height I want.

Whatever happens it is essential to get the gun steady (with due respect to those that discount this notion) and I often feel frustrated, when I do raise the gun higher, to see a perfect stop, and then lose it as I lower to a wobbly hold.

Thanks for your input,

Gordon

Yes indeed there are different definitions of "Steady" which is readily apparent once we actually start having a meaningful discussion.

Defining terms and clearing up semantics is perhaps tedious and might seem not worth the effort to a whole lot of people.

But in the end, it saves you a whole lot of time and aggravation.

Whatever technique gives you the individual shooter a "bettermal" (no such thing as "optimal") "Moment of Truth" as the shot breaks is the correct technique.

Bettermal MoT conditions:

- You are focused physically on front sight
- You are focused mentally on front sight and keeping sights aligned
- Your settle is as calm as it is going to get
- Your trigger execution is flawless in two dimensions
a. perfect physical manipulation, so as to not disturb the sights; and
b. perfect feedbacka dn control loop placing the break as the perfectly aligned sights engage the sweet spot of the aiming area
- Mental and physical follow through that makes the shot a continuous process

However you get to that point is not the issue. Getting to that point is the issue.

That's why you have to experiment- a bit- with different techniques and "Analyze" (Oh No!) what works best for you to achieve that "Moment of Truth."

Try the "slide." Broken slide. Slide Fade. Over- under. Even the "side sweep." There are a wide variety of "acceptable" techniques that shooters have used to varying degrees of success over the years.

But if you don't know what you are trying to accomplish at the end of it all, all you are doing is flailing around. Not experimenting.

Of course, if what I just said is a bunch of BS to you, great. Carry On. Find a good coach who does understand.

Steve Swartz wrote: Whatever technique gives you a "bettermal" is the correct technique.

That's why you have to experiment- a bit- with different techniques and "Analyze" what works best for you

no argument there

Steve Swartz wrote: But if you don't know what you are trying to accomplish at the end of it all, all you are doing is flailing around. Not experimenting.

This is where people like Bill have a special edge. People like you and I do not really know what we are trying to accomplish. All we have is a conceptual model. Bill on the other hand, and others like him, really does know what we are trying to accomplish. They have felt it. Whatever sub-conscious proccess might or might not be at play, it is or is not at play in their subconcious, because the end result, that is the regular consistent string of hundreds and hundreds of virtually consecutive tens is their hallmark.

Now it isn't easy to comunicate mastery from one individual to another, however the subjective accounts of the master are of the greatest interest. So when someone like Bill explains what it feels like to him to make his shot, we should listen. Carefully.

But as you say, we have to experiment and analyze, if we ever hope to experience what Bill has experienced.

Steve Swartz wrote:
Try the "slide." Broken slide. Slide Fade. Over- under. Even the "side sweep."

Well allright! This is the nitty gritty. Time to define our terms. What exactly is each of these. What do people claim as their relative merits?


Even if we accept the "whatever is right for you" mantra, there must be some empirical limits. I mean however you get over the bar in the highjump is the right way as long as you gt over, but there are not that many techniques in use at present. And there are older techniques that have been definitively weeded out.

Now here is a sample of my own mental flailing around in an attempt to understand how to get my gun from sitting on the table to sitting in my most purposeful aimed hold. These are the questions I would like to find answers to.

Generally speaking, people like to build their grip and hold and sight alignment outside of the aiing area and then move in. My experimentation at this time involves trying to understand why.

Why do we not just build the shot right in the zone?

This is not what I do, mind you, but why not? Why should we try to get essentially the perfect postion and then move it someplace else? Or if we accept that we are going to move our aim (after we have aligned the sights and started our squeeze), then does it make sense to move a greater or a lessor distance? Particularly considering that you only have a few seconds to get the shot off before your mental and physical start to break up, does it not make sense to simplify this pre-shot phase?

Best Regards,

Gordon

gordonfriesen wrote:

Steve Swartz wrote: But if you don't know what you are trying to accomplish at the end of it all, all you are doing is flailing around. Not experimenting.

This is where people like Bill have a special edge. People like you and I do not really know what we are trying to accomplish.

OK, this is really getting old. I may not agree with some of what Steve writes (or the way he expresses it , for that matter), but I do know that in the past he has performed at the highest levels, at least in AP. Steve doesn't choose to brag about his prior accomplishments (like some others), and lately his scores have not been high due to major surgery. Nevertheless, he knows what he is talking about from personal experience. I'm getting really tired of people assuming that lack of bragging means lack of expertise, especially when these people make condescending or snide comments, and most especially when they identify themselves only as "guest" or only with a common first name (e.g. "bryan").

End of rant....
Never mind....

FredB

I may not agree with some of what Steve writes (or the way he expresses it , for that matter), but I do know that in the past he has performed at the highest levels...
*******************

Fred,

I am sorry if I misjudged Steve`s performance. I have been following along and got the impression he is/was a 540 FP shooter. That commands a lot of respect. But 2650 ? 2650 is virually superhuman. I mean, the guy has to shoot an eight from time to time, so that is more than 220 tens out of 270 rounds.

Lay out 270 rounds on the table. Try to imagine you, or anybody else, including Steve, putting 220 of those shots into the ten.

Of course perhaps you can. In any case, that is what performing at the "highest levels" means in this sport. I know I can't do it. Not many can.

And I do not disrespect Steve. He points us to lots of interesting info. But I stand by my statement. Steve, and others at a normal level of competency, are trying to figure out what it would be like to shoot tens all the time. Bill knows.

I look forward to discussing what sort of training program can lead to that goal. Everybody's two cents is interesting. But in this context of the blind leading the blind, I think it is obvious that any of Bill's suggestions are particularly worthy of careful consideration.

Best Regards,

Gordon

Why must one post thier scores to be considered credible? Several of the best coaches I have met, never have been world class shooters . That includes the highest "paid" coaches in the Nation. A world class shooter that can coach is very rare indeed. I know for a fact, Steve shot world class scores in the past, so I guess that makes him rare. Just because you can thup ones chest the loudest, or drop the biggest names does not make a great coach. Forward thinking , a willingness to help ,ability to adapt, patience, sharing the dream of another, humblness, always learning, are some of the qualities that are a must for a coach. Steve is a very good coach, I have watched him in action.



Brooks

Slide: Like in baseball. Smooth steady loft into aiming area with rapid stop.

Broken slide: Stop early then creep into zone.

Slide Fade: Decelerate as you approach the zone.

Over- under: Slide into point above zone then sag into zone.

Even the side sweep: used to set up string in RF; come at first target from side angle.

Try them all- and more. Be creative. But 1) know how to evaluate the "goodness" of the results; 2) evaluate objectively; 3) keep notes; 4) practice "continuous improvement " (e.g. kaizen) don't get too "frozen" too early.

The most important issue- that which you tooka sideways look at- is the whole "knowing what to evaluate" part. So I'll post it again and seek comment (Bettermal MoT conditions):

- You are focused physically on front sight
- You are focused mentally on front sight and keeping sights aligned
- Your settle is as calm as it is going to get
- Your trigger execution is flawless in two dimensions
a. perfect physical manipulation, so as to not disturb the sights; and
b. perfect feedbacka dn control loop placing the break as the perfectly aligned sights engage the sweet spot of the aiming area
- Mental and physical follow through that makes the shot a continuous process

The above list is- I still maintain- the real "nut" of shooting the perfect shot. Welcome criticism/commentary on the above from one and all.


(p.s. yep the 2650 brassard for shooting bullseye is a pretty elite recognition for that discipline. No argument there! Not even sure how many of those have been given out but it ain't many. Even fewer on a percentage basis. Bullseye shooting is a different discipline on many levels. A whole different shooting cutlure.)

Oh I'll post the first criticism:

Those bettermal conditions seem more focuesed on shooting iron sight slow fire than anything else, correct?

Correct.

Your milage will vary for RF, CF, Sport Pistol, Service Pistol, and any non-iron sight events.

Sorry about that; for example (as has been noted before) for rapid-fire events the "trigger moves the sight" (vs "sights move trigger") philosophy of technique makes more sense for many shooters.

I'm not a rapid fire shooter. RF in bullseye was always my weakness. I have never even attempted international RF.

O.K. doggone it this whole "CRS" old age and memory thing is really frustrating. Some points I forgot to make in the previous two posts:

1. Gordon's point about "how can you coach someone to achieve something you yourself have not achieved" keeps coming back like a sci-fi zombie. Empirical evidence aside (we see that typically the best coaches in the world for all sports are generally not nor ever have been "world class" performers themselves), the point makes intuitive sense but is also logically flawed. Teaching/coaching involves inherently different skillsets. That's why.

2. About assembling the shot while in the aiming area; Gordon answered his own question. Would you not want to "pre build" every element you can *before* approaching the Moment of Truth? To take the ridiculous extreme, why don't we not even pick up the gun until we are ready to release the shot? Well, you can't. It is required (simply by physical reality) that some things be established in a sequence. The purpose of hte shot plan is to establish that sequence in such a way that you only have "a very small number of things left to do" when the shot is about to be released. For precisely teh reasons Gordon mention s. you only ahave a couple of seconds of optimal focus (mental and physical). Make the most of them.

Heres one for that silly argument about you can't coach a world class athlete unless you were one yourself, when was Bela Kyroli ever a female gymnast? Yet he coach to of the best female gymnast ever.

The list of coaches that have never won golds, worldcups, superbowls, titles, or world series, yet have had athletes under their coaching go on to achieve these thing is very long. The list of coaches that have been top athletes then have had other athletes that they have coached go on is much smaller.

The only thing that I agree with is if you can find a ex top athlete that can coach you well then that is probably the ultimate, but I wouldn't hold out looking for that very rare relationship.

Steve Swartz wrote:Slide: Like in baseball. Smooth steady loft into aiming area with rapid stop.

Broken slide: Stop early then creep into zone.

Slide Fade: Decelerate as you approach the zone.

Over- under: Slide into point above zone then sag into zone.

The most important issue- that which you tooka sideways look at- is the whole "knowing what to evaluate" part. So I'll post it again and seek comment.

Steve,

For the time being, I have sort of shelved the `bettermal conditions". There seems to be a real consensus on the board right up until we get to the sights/trigger chicken or egg thing, and the difference there seems to reflect trigger weight, ie, the heavier the trigger (sport pistol) the more likely to lead with it, and the lighter the triggr (fp), the more likely to follow the sights. So with that one caveat, we can proceed on the assumption that we are reading from the same page.

Futher let's assume that we have all consciously shot tens, felt the gun steady in the zone, felt the shot break as if by magic, watched the post stay dead center in the notch all the way thrugh the recoil and recovery, and said to oneself, "hey, this shooting thing is a piece of cake..."

But now my gun is on the table and I want to do it again. I have to find a step by step way of getting back into that feeling. therefore the "how" becomes tne immediate priority in practice. And how I line up the gun will be a big part of that. Thanks for the list of alternatives. Food for thought.

About assembling the shot while in the aiming area; Gordon answered his own question.

I haven't to my own satisfaction, but I think it has to do with shifting consciousness from feelings inside the body and muscles to visual consciousness of the sights. first I feel the shoulder, elbow, grip, trigger and while I am vaguely aware of the sights, I am not really focusing on them. As I go into the zone, my attention shifts to the steadiness of the hold which has both body awareness and visual cues, and finally, consciousness is shifted over entirely to the visual fixation on sight alignment.

This agrees with Bill's much more ecoomic description as: Line up the gun and start to squeeze Move into the zone. Hold the gun steady. Perfect sight alignment.

So I would say that keeping the proper conscious focus at the proper time is helped by lining up the gun outside the zone where vision is still largely ignored and reserving the knowledge of "being there" (seeing you are in the zone) as a cue to go over to the final visual alignment. Thus we can avoid confusion.

However, the question remains as to whether we might not more economically do all of this in one place. It seems to me that as soon as you move, you are disturbing things which you have already checked off as ok. And if you are going to go through the checklist again when you are in the zone, then what have you gained by lining up above the bull? I am presently experimenting with building the position in the white below the bull without aiming, then taking a better look and moving, just adjusting really, into the zone and firing.

Gordon's point about "how can you coach someone to achieve something you yourself have not achieved" ...Teaching/coaching involves inherently different skill sets.

I agree entirely. I have never had a coach. What I have is intermitent conversations with really good shooters who just happen to haunt the same venues as I do, and who occaisonally tell me something really useful.

Best Regards,

Gordon

Referencing the orriginal post. My comments about what to do recognized that there was no time to do anything as far as training goes, All the shooter could do at that late date was try to build his confidence prior to the match. Every thing I suggested is designed to do just that. We do get off on some amazing tangents don't we. Good Shooting Bill Horton