Dear Members,
We finally had some good weather around Flathead Lake in MT and of course... FIRST THINGS FIRST!
I finally put together the machine...it is all made out of 100% SS including spherical rod ends, collars, bolts-nuts, etc. I kept it as simple as possible for reliability and easy maintenance but it is VERY HEAVY DUTY.
The controller is from TARGET TIMERS with voice commands. The best controller I have seen or used. http://www.targettimers.com/target_controller.html
The machine works extraordinary well and all I will be doing is painting it matte gray just for looks as it will be inside my house (rec. area) for shooting during the winter...Best of all is that my wife gave the OK for indoor use!
Please find included some pictures...if you need any more details, please contact me.
Best regards for all of you and thank you so much for your input and advice.
AZUARO
Flathead Lake, MT
Rapid Fire Turning Target Machines and Clubs
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, David Levene, Spencer, Richard H
Forum rules
If you wish to make a donation to this forum's operation , it would be greatly appreciated.
https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/targettalk?yours=true
If you wish to make a donation to this forum's operation , it would be greatly appreciated.
https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/targettalk?yours=true
Dear Members,
I forgot to add the next phase for this machine… I am working in fabricating REAL FALLING TARGETS that I will be using with this Turning target machine...
I am making steel targets identical to the ISSF official paper ones but made out of steel with 60mm target holes as standard, easily changed to 40 or 35 or 30 mm with inserts for the new ISSF. So just replace your paper target with the metal one and shoot!
The plates will fall and then will arm upon the target turning 90 degrees away...
I am also working on a target that will also be made out of metal but will have red and green leds, when the target is facing you the red led is on, if you hit the target (openings 40, 35 or 30 mm) it will turn the green led....when the targets turn away from the shooter, they will reset to red.
After these targets, a combination of both will be the best of the best....a real falling target with red/green leds as an addition (Hit the target - target is covered - green led turns on)...not that you really need all of this but it will be attractive and fun...
An option for any of the targets above is a counter that will stay on until manually reset so you will have the green leds on (which and number of targets hit while the shooter is firing) and you will have a large digital counter confirming the score; it will stay on after the targets turn away and the leds turn back to red.
Maybe a manual/timed kind of counter will be best (can be used manually or timed for automatic reset).
While having an independent setup for turning the leds on and off will be the easiest way of doing it as I already have (a system behind the machine that will operate when hit by the pellets passing the hole), I rather have an integral system (in the target itself)...it will be much cleaner, better looking and a real nice piece of engineering.
With metal targets working one way or the other as explained above, you can have the best of all worlds: A real turning target with falling plates or an official ISSF paper turning target...NO MORE PROBLEMS WITH SHOTS FIRED JUST AFTER THE RED LIGHT TURNED ON as it often happens with those falling plates’ machines…
Any other ideas or suggestions while I am in the development phase will be very welcome, and of course, when finished I will post them with pictures so clubs and serious shooters can copy/improve the designs.
My sincere thanks and my best regards for all members,
AZUARO
Flathead Lake, MT
I forgot to add the next phase for this machine… I am working in fabricating REAL FALLING TARGETS that I will be using with this Turning target machine...
I am making steel targets identical to the ISSF official paper ones but made out of steel with 60mm target holes as standard, easily changed to 40 or 35 or 30 mm with inserts for the new ISSF. So just replace your paper target with the metal one and shoot!
The plates will fall and then will arm upon the target turning 90 degrees away...
I am also working on a target that will also be made out of metal but will have red and green leds, when the target is facing you the red led is on, if you hit the target (openings 40, 35 or 30 mm) it will turn the green led....when the targets turn away from the shooter, they will reset to red.
After these targets, a combination of both will be the best of the best....a real falling target with red/green leds as an addition (Hit the target - target is covered - green led turns on)...not that you really need all of this but it will be attractive and fun...
An option for any of the targets above is a counter that will stay on until manually reset so you will have the green leds on (which and number of targets hit while the shooter is firing) and you will have a large digital counter confirming the score; it will stay on after the targets turn away and the leds turn back to red.
Maybe a manual/timed kind of counter will be best (can be used manually or timed for automatic reset).
While having an independent setup for turning the leds on and off will be the easiest way of doing it as I already have (a system behind the machine that will operate when hit by the pellets passing the hole), I rather have an integral system (in the target itself)...it will be much cleaner, better looking and a real nice piece of engineering.
With metal targets working one way or the other as explained above, you can have the best of all worlds: A real turning target with falling plates or an official ISSF paper turning target...NO MORE PROBLEMS WITH SHOTS FIRED JUST AFTER THE RED LIGHT TURNED ON as it often happens with those falling plates’ machines…
Any other ideas or suggestions while I am in the development phase will be very welcome, and of course, when finished I will post them with pictures so clubs and serious shooters can copy/improve the designs.
My sincere thanks and my best regards for all members,
AZUARO
Flathead Lake, MT
-
David Levene
- Posts: 5617
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:49 pm
- Location: Ruislip, UK
Azuaro, your system looks great.
I am slightly confused by your reference to ISSF falling plates "easily changed to 40 or 35 or 30 mm with inserts for the new ISSF".
Maybe I misunderstood what you are trying to do but I just want to check that you realise the only ISSF falling plates are shot with air pistols, at 10m, with 300mm centre-to-centre plates.
See rule 8.20.9.1 of the ISSF 5 Shot Air Pistol Rules
I am slightly confused by your reference to ISSF falling plates "easily changed to 40 or 35 or 30 mm with inserts for the new ISSF".
Maybe I misunderstood what you are trying to do but I just want to check that you realise the only ISSF falling plates are shot with air pistols, at 10m, with 300mm centre-to-centre plates.
See rule 8.20.9.1 of the ISSF 5 Shot Air Pistol Rules
Dear David,
Absolutely…the machine complies with this rule…
The ctc of 300 mm is the same for the falling plates and turning targets when shot with air pistols...this machine is adjusted for shooting with air pistols but can easily be transformed for .22 RF if you ever wanted to do this (it takes about 15 min)...All you need to do is to slide out the target holders and add an extension to the main bar (the machine as is in the pictures was designed for this modification)
The diameter of 59.5 mm for the black is the same for PAPER targets and for the falling plates RIKA machine.
The inserts for the falling plates that I mention come from the RIKA falling plates machine, in this set up you can change the inserts from a std. 60 mm to 40, 35 and the new ISSF 30 mm. Please see:
http://www.pilkguns.com/fallingplates.shtml
What I am doing is making the machine extremely flexible…it can be used with rotating paper targets and then, by just inserting METAL targets, it will function as the RIKA machine if you don't rotate the targets. Having the flexibility of ROTATING THE TARGETS will in turn eliminate a lot of controversy about possible shots fired after the red led is turned on (in conventional non-rotating targets) RIKA machines...I am working on falling plate METAL targets that will be inserted in the machine the same way you insert PAPER TARGETS. They will have green and red leds and the digital counter is an option.
In other words: How do you want to shot rapid fire? Conventional with traditional rotating paper targets? or NEW falling plates with red & green leds? (here you don't use the rotating feature of the machine) or New falling plates with ROTATING targets and red & green leds for marking hits?… a digital counter will keep the score until reset manually or electronically timed and will be an option for the METAL targets alternatives only.
I hope that this answers your questions…
Regards,
AZUARO
Flathead Lake, MT
Absolutely…the machine complies with this rule…
The ctc of 300 mm is the same for the falling plates and turning targets when shot with air pistols...this machine is adjusted for shooting with air pistols but can easily be transformed for .22 RF if you ever wanted to do this (it takes about 15 min)...All you need to do is to slide out the target holders and add an extension to the main bar (the machine as is in the pictures was designed for this modification)
The diameter of 59.5 mm for the black is the same for PAPER targets and for the falling plates RIKA machine.
The inserts for the falling plates that I mention come from the RIKA falling plates machine, in this set up you can change the inserts from a std. 60 mm to 40, 35 and the new ISSF 30 mm. Please see:
http://www.pilkguns.com/fallingplates.shtml
What I am doing is making the machine extremely flexible…it can be used with rotating paper targets and then, by just inserting METAL targets, it will function as the RIKA machine if you don't rotate the targets. Having the flexibility of ROTATING THE TARGETS will in turn eliminate a lot of controversy about possible shots fired after the red led is turned on (in conventional non-rotating targets) RIKA machines...I am working on falling plate METAL targets that will be inserted in the machine the same way you insert PAPER TARGETS. They will have green and red leds and the digital counter is an option.
In other words: How do you want to shot rapid fire? Conventional with traditional rotating paper targets? or NEW falling plates with red & green leds? (here you don't use the rotating feature of the machine) or New falling plates with ROTATING targets and red & green leds for marking hits?… a digital counter will keep the score until reset manually or electronically timed and will be an option for the METAL targets alternatives only.
I hope that this answers your questions…
Regards,
AZUARO
Flathead Lake, MT
-
David Levene
- Posts: 5617
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:49 pm
- Location: Ruislip, UK
My apologies, it looked like your targets were designed for 25m. If they are designed for 10m then that only makes them even better built.
Remember that if you want to simulate Rapid Fire at 10m then the diameter of the black should be 200mm. There is no turning target event for the 59.5mm black, whether as a 10m event or simulating a 25m event.
Here in the UK we do shoot the rule 8.20.4 10m Air Pistol Standard Event on turning targets but that is actually against the ISSF rules. At my club we do however notify the alteration in the meeting programme.
Remember that if you want to simulate Rapid Fire at 10m then the diameter of the black should be 200mm. There is no turning target event for the 59.5mm black, whether as a 10m event or simulating a 25m event.
Here in the UK we do shoot the rule 8.20.4 10m Air Pistol Standard Event on turning targets but that is actually against the ISSF rules. At my club we do however notify the alteration in the meeting programme.
It is better to make it simple.
Use stationary targets with red/green light.
Late shots are detected thus:
Hang two steel plates behind the target 2 mm apart, one behind the other.
They should be electrically separated from each other because current will flow (for a short period) from the front plate to the second plate if hit by a bullet.
Use a tyristor and when red light is on, current will flow from first plate to second plate and to the gate on the tyristor, the tyristor will then let current pass through until circuit is broken. Let this current light up a LED and you know when a shot has been fired to late. The tyristor can ONLY be made to let current pass when there is a red light. Tyristor is a low cost item. Less than 1$.
I use a red LED above and a green below. In addition to that I have a red LED under the green to tell if there was a hit.
It is possible to let it turn on when there is a green light and thus tell if there was a hit during the green period.
For .22 you can use a device used for a burglar alarm that reacts on vibrations. Be inventive and use fantasy!
Kent
Use stationary targets with red/green light.
Late shots are detected thus:
Hang two steel plates behind the target 2 mm apart, one behind the other.
They should be electrically separated from each other because current will flow (for a short period) from the front plate to the second plate if hit by a bullet.
Use a tyristor and when red light is on, current will flow from first plate to second plate and to the gate on the tyristor, the tyristor will then let current pass through until circuit is broken. Let this current light up a LED and you know when a shot has been fired to late. The tyristor can ONLY be made to let current pass when there is a red light. Tyristor is a low cost item. Less than 1$.
I use a red LED above and a green below. In addition to that I have a red LED under the green to tell if there was a hit.
It is possible to let it turn on when there is a green light and thus tell if there was a hit during the green period.
For .22 you can use a device used for a burglar alarm that reacts on vibrations. Be inventive and use fantasy!
Kent
Just to make it clear, in Swedish but I think you can follow me..
YES there is one thing WRONG here. The Signal lamp should be to the + and not the -!
Röd = Red, Grön = Green Kontakt vid träff = detecting a hit ( if there is a contact for a short time the tyristor will turn on the signal lamp until you disconnect the - or + for a short time.)
Kent
YES there is one thing WRONG here. The Signal lamp should be to the + and not the -!
Röd = Red, Grön = Green Kontakt vid träff = detecting a hit ( if there is a contact for a short time the tyristor will turn on the signal lamp until you disconnect the - or + for a short time.)
Kent
-
David Levene
- Posts: 5617
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:49 pm
- Location: Ruislip, UK
Nice idea Kent but IMHO it has the same problem as all "non-mechanical" targets.
One of the attractions of the event is that, when hit, the falling target changes colour. This can be clearly seen, not only by the spectators but also by the shooter (no matter how hard he is concentrating on his sights). Seeing the first four targets drop really increases the pressure for the fifth shot, as does having misses on the first four.
Having an LED come on for a hit, even if it wasn't hidden by the hand/gun, really changes the event (for the worse).
One of the attractions of the event is that, when hit, the falling target changes colour. This can be clearly seen, not only by the spectators but also by the shooter (no matter how hard he is concentrating on his sights). Seeing the first four targets drop really increases the pressure for the fifth shot, as does having misses on the first four.
Having an LED come on for a hit, even if it wasn't hidden by the hand/gun, really changes the event (for the worse).
-
David Levene
- Posts: 5617
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:49 pm
- Location: Ruislip, UK
Maybe I didn't explain myself clearly Kent.
If you are trying to use the lights for the ISSF 5 target event then it doesn't matter what colour lights come on when. They will not raise the pulse rate as much as the plate falling and the target itself changing colour.
If you are just talking about 10m versions of Rapid and Standard then it's a great idea. For Standard you would obviously need to have the light come on to signal a hit outside of the allowed time and have a way of turning the light off (or position it well away from the green & red shoot/no shoot lights).
If you are trying to use the lights for the ISSF 5 target event then it doesn't matter what colour lights come on when. They will not raise the pulse rate as much as the plate falling and the target itself changing colour.
If you are just talking about 10m versions of Rapid and Standard then it's a great idea. For Standard you would obviously need to have the light come on to signal a hit outside of the allowed time and have a way of turning the light off (or position it well away from the green & red shoot/no shoot lights).
And just to clarify these scaled down targets are commercially available from at least a couple of sources (and they ship worldwide).David Levene wrote:Remember that if you want to simulate Rapid Fire at 10m then the diameter of the black should be 200mm. There is no turning target event for the 59.5mm black, whether as a 10m event or simulating a 25m event.
Rob.
Dear Steve,
You Wrote:
"And just to clarify these scaled down targets are commercially available from at least a couple of sources (and they ship worldwide)"
Yes, these machines are commercially available but commercial machines are not as well built, as easy to adjust and maintain and they cost at least 4-5 times more!
Commercial machines are PAINTED usually in green and they are not made in 100% Stainless Steel with SS bearings and self lubricated Bronze bushings...
Parts (if ever needed) for fixing my target turning system can be found anywhere in the US...just try to find a spare part for one of those commercial machines, it will require special order, long wait and high $$$.
I may be wrong but I love to shoot air with turning targets (even though is not an ISSF discipline) …I do it for practicing for 25 m...there is something about the rotating thing that makes it very attractive with my P56 FWB…
I can always shot stationary targets with the same machine….
Regards,
AZUARO
You Wrote:
"And just to clarify these scaled down targets are commercially available from at least a couple of sources (and they ship worldwide)"
Yes, these machines are commercially available but commercial machines are not as well built, as easy to adjust and maintain and they cost at least 4-5 times more!
Commercial machines are PAINTED usually in green and they are not made in 100% Stainless Steel with SS bearings and self lubricated Bronze bushings...
Parts (if ever needed) for fixing my target turning system can be found anywhere in the US...just try to find a spare part for one of those commercial machines, it will require special order, long wait and high $$$.
I may be wrong but I love to shoot air with turning targets (even though is not an ISSF discipline) …I do it for practicing for 25 m...there is something about the rotating thing that makes it very attractive with my P56 FWB…
I can always shot stationary targets with the same machine….
Regards,
AZUARO
Last edited by azuaro on Fri Apr 25, 2008 1:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
-
David Levene
- Posts: 5617
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:49 pm
- Location: Ruislip, UK
I think it was actually Rob you were replying to. I am pretty sure he was talking about scaled down Rapid Fire targets, not the target mechanisms.azuaro wrote:Dear Steve,
You Wrote:
"And just to clarify these scaled down targets are commercially available from at least a couple of sources (and they ship worldwide)"
Yes, these machines are commercially available but commercial machines are not as well built, as easy to adjust and maintain and they cost at least 4-5 times more!
-
David Levene
- Posts: 5617
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:49 pm
- Location: Ruislip, UK