MG2 and other models

[rapid2]

Hi Jipe,

Could you post a scan of the article (pdf) for the less privileged?

Cheers,
Bob

[Guest]

The complete article is in german.

[Ernie Rodriguez]

Great stuff-Thanks.

[Richard H]

Thanks that's some food for thought, I really just don't like the Pardini though

[JulianY]

Great stiff. could you elaborate on what the number mean? Is that group size in mm or ......?

many thanks

Julian

[jipe]

Great stiff. could you elaborate on what the number mean? Is that group size in mm or ......?

many thanks

Julian

The explanations are put under the tables:
"Geschossen wurden je 10 Schuss aus eingespannter Waffe auf 25 meter. Alle gruppen umschlossen gemessen in mm, dahinter die anfangsgeschwindigkeit v1 in m/s. Die engste Gruppe ist jeweils markiert, v0-Werte um und unterhalb von 250 m/s (Mindestwert fur den Einsatz in der Disziplin OSP) ebenfalls. Zwei verschiedene Laborierungen derselben Sorte. In Klammern Schussbild abzgl. eines Ausreissers."

So, yes, the measurements were done by groups of 10 schots with a clamped weapon. All enclosed groups measured in mm, behind the muzzle velocity in m/s. The best group is marked as well as muzzle velocities smaller than 250m/s which is the minimal value for olympic rapid fire pistol.
Values in parentheses means that the firing picture showed one single outlier, in parentheses the group with the outlier removed.

As I said, the groupment of the Pardini's (both) are by far much better than for all other pistols excepted the FWB AW93. This as well for the best group as for the average on all types of ammunition.

The best group both pardini's is 13mm while the next best is 17mm (FWB AW93) or 18mm meaning 31% or 38% bigger !

The average is 21.3 and 20.25, the FWB is close at 23.4 (16% bigger than the best Pardini) but the next one is at 27.75, i.e 37% bigger the worst is at 34.8, i.e. 72% bigger !

I do not own a Pardini, so I am not Pardini biased, I just find this difference in figures amazing.

Another difference to note, is the clear higher speed obtained with all types of ammunitions with the FWB AW93. Why ? Longer barrel ? But the SSp and MG2 have the same barrel length and are far behind while the second higher speed are the CM22 and MP90S that have shorter barrels. I suspect that this speed reduction has something to do with a faster (too fast) opening of the cylinder head.

[Tom Amlie]

As said, very interesting. I wish I could read German so I could understand more of it. In any event, I'm wondering about a couple of issues:
1. I assume (from their reference to an outlier) (and we shouldn't discard outliers blindly, since they too provide information) that these are figures from a single 10 shot group. It would have been instructive to run a sample of several 10 shot groups, and report the average and variability of the group size. We all like consistency (or at least predictability).
2. How much variability could one expect among different examples of the same gun? If these is little or no variability then clearly the Pardini is way ahead on average. If there is a lot of variability then all this test tells us is that Pardini serial # xxx is "better" (in this respect) than Morini CM22 serial # zzz. Obviously it would be unreasonable to expect the magazine to acquire more copies of the same guns in order to measure this consistency, but it is an unknown source of variation worth keeping in mind.

[Mike M.]

I think the real question is the total error budget.

There is accuracy from a machine rest....and accuracy from the hand. And sometimes, you will find that a less accurate gun that suits the shooter better will produce higher scores.

[jipe]

As said, very interesting. I wish I could read German so I could understand more of it. In any event, I'm wondering about a couple of issues:
1. I assume (from their reference to an outlier) (and we shouldn't discard outliers blindly, since they too provide information) that these are figures from a single 10 shot group. It would have been instructive to run a sample of several 10 shot groups, and report the average and variability of the group size. We all like consistency (or at least predictability).
2. How much variability could one expect among different examples of the same gun? If these is little or no variability then clearly the Pardini is way ahead on average. If there is a lot of variability then all this test tells us is that Pardini serial # xxx is "better" (in this respect) than Morini CM22 serial # zzz. Obviously it would be unreasonable to expect the magazine to acquire more copies of the same guns in order to measure this consistency, but it is an unknown source of variation worth keeping in mind.

There is some limted answer to your two questions:
- variability of the guns: they actually tested two pardini's, one SP new and one SP1. The difference between those two guns is the trigger, mechanic for one, electronic for the other. What of course doesn't influence a bench test. If you compare the results of those two guns, they are pretty close for most ammunitions and the averages are also close, 21.3 vs 20.25mm, about 1mm, i.e. 5%.
- variability of the ammunition between production batches: they tested two batch of Fiocchi SM rapid fire 280. And the results are close for some guns, different for most of them. Just as some guns exhibit big differences between the type of ammunition.

My conclusion about those two points only reinforce the advantage of the Pardini:
- the two Pardini's produce close results that are by far the bests of the test.
- the Pardini provide good results with almost all types of ammunition tested => their accuracy is not sensitive for the ammunitions variations: variation between brand and type, but then also variations between production batches.

So, I would say: with a Pardini you do not need to worry very much for types of ammunition, you will always get a good accuracy (their average over all tested ammunitions is smaller than the centre circle of the ten, their worst results is almost in it). This seems a unique, major advantage !

As already said, I do not own a Pardini, I have nothing to do with Pardini. The above conclusion is a little extreme and provocative, I am sure it will generate reactions !

Now, to be fully honest, the FWB AW93 performed almost as well and provides the same advantage but that's it, none of the other guns even the newest, most sophisticated ones can compete on that point.

[Richard H]

I wonder if the recoil absorbing system effect the result from a clamped gun. I know in photography you turn off the VR (image stabilization) when shooting from a tripod. The worst guns in this test all have some form of absorbtion.

[Mark Briggs]

Thanks for posting this most interesting information! Now I have some data to think about. I'm curious though as to why the SSP seemed to have fliers with Eley ammo. I hope that's unique to the particular serial number tested and not to all SSP's...

[JulianY]

I wonder if the recoil absorbing system effect the result from a clamped gun. I know in photography you turn off the VR (image stabilization) when shooting from a tripod. The worst guns in this test all have some form of absorbtion.

So do the best !

What is also interesting is the Eley pistol Xtra ammunition also come out very well across all guns

The results are somewhat similar to this test;

http://hem.bredband.net/nfdt/22lr/index.html


Julian