Michigan Air Pistol PTO August 11, 2007

[Steve Swartz]

Richard:

Apparently, scores do matter in this sport. So why should we care that a 565 gets recorded as a 579 . . . when, in the same match, a 545 gets recorded accurately?

Why, indeed?

Steve Swartz

[I can see that it doesn't matter much for club matches where the scores never get sent in to the NGB.]

[Russ]

Hmmmm. I see now why Russ has a such a large average given what he shot at Nationals.

At the Nationals every one gets equal attention from the electronic scoring system as "SIUS-ASCOR". It was not any special favor for me :)
Sorry, looks like what you think of me is not MY problem :(

[Russ]

I'm not trying to be a smartass or something. It's just that I've never seen a match with 5 shots per target. We don't have that much electronic targets here in Sweden either, but some ranges do have them. For example the national championship is usually nowadays shot on Megalink targets.

When shot on regular paper scorecards we mostly shoot 2 shots per target. The tricky thing is if someone shoots lets say a 9,9 and a 10,0 basicly in the same hole. I can imagine 3-4 shots in a cluster somewhere in the 9,9-10,0. Must be a nightmare.

My job is shot... Referee must to know how to score.... every one will be busy in own way.

[Richard H]

Richard:

Apparently, scores do matter in this sport. So why should we care that a 565 gets recorded as a 579 . . . when, in the same match, a 545 gets recorded accurately?

Why, indeed?

Steve Swartz

[I can see that it doesn't matter much for club matches where the scores never get sent in to the NGB.]

Give me a break you really think someone is going to get 14 extra points on 12 targets. At most there maybe a few shots that are questionable out of 60. I hate to tell you I've seen as many single shot targets scored wrong too, do you think the guy that gets extra poimts challenges his score? Most likely not, but I forgot people when making scoring errors only take points away.

[David Levene]

How would you handle a count-back to break a tie.

Personally I really don't care, and really niether do they or they wouldn't have you shooting 5 on a card.

Providing that you can score the 5 shots then you can still use count-back which, as you know, is in ten shot series.

But they would, just use the last series like they always would.

But if you've shot one shot in each card and the repeated that 4 times, how can they tell which was the last series

How do they know the targets were shot in the order they were handed in?
Don't say because they are numbered because that doesn't prove the order they were shot in.

That's simple, if you run a match in accordance with ISSF rules then targets are collected after each 10 shot series.


I suppose it really depends on how close you want to stay to the spirit of the ISSF rules. With certain levels of match it would obviously be reasonable to shoot more shots per target than the ISSF rules allow for. I can however see little point in removing the ability for fair/honest tie-breaking by not collecting the targets at the correct time.

[David Levene]

David you really should get out and shoot more ;) Even if its 5 shots on a card 8).

I did most of my shooting several years ago. I'm now a lot more interested in helping other people to compete fairly against each other. The easiest way I know of to maintain the highest degree of fairness is to stick closely to a published set of rules.

I fully accept that some people are not interested in competing against others and, to them, the ISSF or other match rules have little relevance.

[PETE S]

I hold PTO's in the Richmond, VA area. We put ten shoots per bull in FP, with two targets down range. We score after 20 shoots in 34 minutes (done 3 times).

According to some, I guess I should stop holding the PTOs. The one I hold in August is the only match in several hundred miles and would encompass several major cities along the east coast.

I can claim that a reasonable number of competitors have resumed their international pistol careers after many years of not competing. Several have attended the nationals and taken medals.

If someone shows up wearing high top shoes, I let them shoot and tell them afterwards that those are not legal. I tell them after the match if the blinders are too big, I purchased a trigger weight set and let competitors adjust their triggers when they want to.

My goal is to provide a place for people to compete, get involved, and train competitors so they can attend matches any place, any time if that is what they want. And I make some adjustments to speed the matches so I call as a lone match director hold FP, Std, Rapid, CF and Sport in one day.

[Richard H]

David you really should get out and shoot more ;) Even if its 5 shots on a card 8).

I did most of my shooting several years ago. I'm now a lot more interested in helping other people to compete fairly against each other. The easiest way I know of to maintain the highest degree of fairness is to stick closely to a published set of rules.

I fully accept that some people are not interested in competing against others and, to them, the ISSF or other match rules have little relevance.

[Richard H]

I hold PTO's in the Richmond, VA area. We put ten shoots per bull in FP, with two targets down range. We score after 20 shoots in 34 minutes (done 3 times).

According to some, I guess I should stop holding the PTOs. The one I hold in August is the only match in several hundred miles and would encompass several major cities along the east coast.

I can claim that a reasonable number of competitors have resumed their international pistol careers after many years of not competing. Several have attended the nationals and taken medals.

If someone shows up wearing high top shoes, I let them shoot and tell them afterwards that those are not legal. I tell them after the match if the blinders are too big, I purchased a trigger weight set and let competitors adjust their triggers when they want to.

My goal is to provide a place for people to compete, get involved, and train competitors so they can attend matches any place, any time if that is what they want. And I make some adjustments to speed the matches so I call as a lone match director hold FP, Std, Rapid, CF and Sport in one day.

Pete keep doing what your doing, the vast majority of people appreciate your efforts. Unfortuantely there are a few that could always find something to complaint about.

[Russ]

I hold PTO's in the Richmond, VA area. We put ten shoots per bull in FP, with two targets down range. We score after 20 shoots in 34 minutes (done 3 times).

According to some, I guess I should stop holding the PTOs. The one I hold in August is the only match in several hundred miles and would encompass several major cities along the east coast.

I can claim that a reasonable number of competitors have resumed their international pistol careers after many years of not competing. Several have attended the nationals and taken medals.

If someone shows up wearing high top shoes, I let them shoot and tell them afterwards that those are not legal. I tell them after the match if the blinders are too big, I purchased a trigger weight set and let competitors adjust their triggers when they want to.

My goal is to provide a place for people to compete, get involved, and train competitors so they can attend matches any place, any time if that is what they want. And I make some adjustments to speed the matches so I call as a lone match director hold FP, Std, Rapid, CF and Sport in one day.

To PETE S
My deep Appreciation and Respect for them who are able to make the things happen!

You are guys doing Great Job to keeping our Olympic Sport Alive!
I come back to the sport after eight years of not competing.... even not holding a pistol...and I don't care how many shots must be in the target five or ten....
I have my chance to take opportunity to come back to sport and I took it!
I like the quotes from movie " School for Scoundrels"... "It is two type of man in the world, one is who Run the S... and two is who Eat the s...."
My deep Appreciation and Respect for them who are able to make the things happen, instead of them who can able only produce “Talking. “

[Guest]

Russ: Great quote- I guess that is why you are the "Big Dog" now. More results less talk.

[Russ]

Russ: Great quote- I guess that is why you are the "Big Dog" now. More results less talk.

I was a "Big" ;) (in terms of scores....by comparison of my current level of performance) .... but I lost a lot of time since then....
You are absolutely right about this: Some one who is proactive looking for an opportunity and the other one looking for excuses.

[Steve Swartz]

WTF, O?!?!

Whatever.

Anyhow, Pete- ten shots per FP target at 50 yards/meters (for a 550 shooter) is a lot less of a problem than 5 shots per AP target for a 570 shooter. Heck, 10 shots per bull for the 50 foot FP target is less of a problem than 5 per target for AP.

The issue is being able to record an accurate score. Or not. And the issue of giving the better shooters an unfair advantage.

As to "Doing Something for the Sport: how about these ideas from our state clubs:

- We have progressive pistol (for youngsters)
- and metallic silhouette (for youngsters of any age)
- as well as clay shoots, bottlecap shoots etc.

- We have club matches for those who choose to "shoot for beers" and that fills a niche as well. The club shooters, of course, can and do shoot 5 shots per card with no issues.

Those activities attract people to the sport and stimulate interest.

- For serious competitors, we have PTOs- where one or two shots per card is needed in order to accurately assess performance. As noted earlier, A or lower competitors use 5 per card at some matches; most people don't have a problem with that.

And on a personal note, I'm not sure what the size of dogs has to do with following the rules . . . that logic escapes me.

Maybe it's a cultural thing.

Steve Swartz

[Richard H]

Whatever?

I hope they have electro/mechanical target carriers as a minimum as they are the minimum required by ISSF rules. This must give someone an unfair advantage. Make sure you take your light meter to ensure that the proper lighting exists too (people who regularly shoot on the dim range will have an advantage over you). Ensure that the bench is the required distance in front of the firing line (which it wasn't at the WC at FT. Benning). Please make sure you make your displeasure known to the organizers so they won't make the same mistake agian by holding such substandard events.

[Richard H]

David you really should get out and shoot more ;) Even if its 5 shots on a card 8).

I did most of my shooting several years ago. I'm now a lot more interested in helping other people to compete fairly against each other. The easiest way I know of to maintain the highest degree of fairness is to stick closely to a published set of rules.

I fully accept that some people are not interested in competing against others and, to them, the ISSF or other match rules have little relevance.

As Steve says WTF?

I'm as interested in competeing as the next guy, but I live in the real world and it scoring 5 on a card is not an unfair advantage to anyone.

I find it totally unbeleivable that anyone that has shot at all can't accurately score 5 shots on an AP target.

But its fine for every other disipline to shoot multiple shots on a single target (as many as 10) and still score them?

So give me a break, just like the blinder rules have to do with the integrity of the sport. The only reason singles are on air is because target changers are more readily available for air, it has nothing to do with scoring and fairness.

[David Levene]

David you really should get out and shoot more ;) Even if its 5 shots on a card 8).

I did most of my shooting several years ago. I'm now a lot more interested in helping other people to compete fairly against each other. The easiest way I know of to maintain the highest degree of fairness is to stick closely to a published set of rules.

I fully accept that some people are not interested in competing against others and, to them, the ISSF or other match rules have little relevance.

I'm as interested in competeing as the next guy, but I live in the real world and it scoring 5 on a card is not an unfair advantage to anyone.

I find it totally unbeleivable that anyone that has shot at all can't accurately score 5 shots on an AP target.

I'm not sure why you seem to be getting so worked up about this Richard. I have previously said "With certain levels of match it would obviously be reasonable to shoot more shots per target than the ISSF rules allow for."

I would suggest however that asking top shooters to shoot 5 shots per card would not only dramatically increase the difficulty of scoring each shot, it would often even be impossible to be certain how many shots are on the target.

[Steve Swartz]

Richard (and Russ):

I'm sorry (and frankly puzzled) that this is such an emotional issue for you guys.

I offer my opinion- whether you care or not- on rules in general; I think they are necessary to keep a level playing field. Frankly, as long as everyone is playing by the same rules, for the most part I just "Cowboy Up" and go along. Yes, the blinder rule may have been stupid/for stupid reasons but hey, I got a pair of scissors, did the deed, and pressed on.

And I have never (and probably never will) protest or even talk to a MD when I see someone else breaking the rules . . . if all it does is hurt me. Hey, I take it as a compliment when somebody feels they need to cheat me to beat me.

I have already offered my opinion on the difficulty of scoring 5 shots per target in air pistol for competitors at the 570+ level. However, to reiterate, without the use of templates and outside gages (like the Eagle Eye) it can be difficult to accurately reconstruct the 9s from the 10s on a single ragged hole, offset slightly from dead center. I have plenty of paper targets (I guess I should have digitized one to include as an exhibit here) that prove the point.

And yes, this is only an issue when:

- You have 570+ shooters; and
- You have an inexperienced and/or "laid back" MD, or
- The MD doesn't expect tightly clustered shots and so doesn't have the proper templates and gages

And I'm not alone in my opinion, as much as it may seem here. I have heard more than one world class athlete . . . and well respected coach . . . make the comment about a high score by saying "Yeah, but he shot that at a 5-shot match" with a wink-wink, nudge-nudge implication that the score was not as accurate if the circumstances had been different.

Without some kind of a poll of top shooters/coaches to back it up, I guess you will either have to take my word for it or not. But there is a common (if not widely held?) perception that scores above 570 shot at 5-shot/card matches are to be discounted or do not hold as much weight as "legal" matches.

Not sure if any more circles around this issue would help or not. Maybe this is just one more issue where I'm out in left field . . .

Steve Swartz

[Russ]

Michigan Air Pistol PTO August 11, 2007

Guys, this topic about "Michigan Air Pistol PTO August 11, 2007"

Who is coming? ;)

[David Levene]

Michigan Air Pistol PTO August 11, 2007

Guys, this topic about "Michigan Air Pistol PTO August 11, 2007"

Who is coming? ;)

Point taken Russ, we got well and truly sidetracked.

It may be a bit far for me to travel but I hope it goes well.

[Richard H]

David you really should get out and shoot more ;) Even if its 5 shots on a card 8).

I did most of my shooting several years ago. I'm now a lot more interested in helping other people to compete fairly against each other. The easiest way I know of to maintain the highest degree of fairness is to stick closely to a published set of rules.

I fully accept that some people are not interested in competing against others and, to them, the ISSF or other match rules have little relevance.

I'm as interested in competeing as the next guy, but I live in the real world and it scoring 5 on a card is not an unfair advantage to anyone.

I find it totally unbeleivable that anyone that has shot at all can't accurately score 5 shots on an AP target.

I'm not sure why you seem to be getting so worked up about this Richard. I have previously said "With certain levels of match it would obviously be reasonable to shoot more shots per target than the ISSF rules allow for."

I would suggest however that asking top shooters to shoot 5 shots per card would not only dramatically increase the difficulty of scoring each shot, it would often even be impossible to be certain how many shots are on the target.

David I'm not worked up thats what you are reading into the post. If you go back to my original post on the subject I clearly stated at local matches. But you keep quoting me so I feel the need to respond.

I do take it a little personally as I've run leagues and assitted in running matches and have listen to shooters belly ache about the most minor and obscure things, yet they never participate when it comes to working at a match, thats my point.

As long as everyone is shooting in the same conditions its fair for that match if 1 guy is shooitng single and 1 guy shooting 5 per card then it could be argued that one has an advantage over the other.