FP - AP, relative scores

[DLindenbaum]

As with most threads, the discussion veers greatly from the original poster's question. I couldn't find any comments as to whether one discipline is harder than another. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that the same shooters score higher in AP than FP. I think that would include world class, mediocre, and bottom rung shooters alike. The question was simply is there a correlation in performance and what might that be? If being honest, I think most people have had the same question. I know I have.

Obviously, AP and FP are different. However, most people that shoot one also seem to shoot the other. No big revelation. However, I personally do not know anyone that competes in both AP and Trap.

Dennis

[Richard H]

As with most threads, the discussion veers greatly from the original poster's question. I couldn't find any comments as to whether one discipline is harder than another. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that the same shooters score higher in AP than FP. I think that would include world class, mediocre, and bottom rung shooters alike. The question was simply is there a correlation in performance and what might that be? If being honest, I think most people have had the same question. I know I have.

Obviously, AP and FP are different. However, most people that shoot one also seem to shoot the other. No big revelation. However, I personally do not know anyone that competes in both AP and Trap.

Dennis

The comparison is meaningless is what I was driving at.

If its so simple why did you have a question about it, people score higher in AP so it easier then free pistol.

[ausdiver99]

Richard, clearly it is easier, thats why people achieve higher scores. The question is why is this the case, what makes Air Pistol and an easier match to achieve higher scores than 50 Metre Pistol. It is a valid question and got me wondering why my AP scores are around 540 and 50 Metre around 500!

The causes are probably a combination of many of the factors raised within this thread:-

Range conditions
Live ammunition vs pellet
Calibre
Firearm attributes (e.g lock time, recoil, grip, trigger weight)
ArcAngle of the target (i.e the perceived size)

I'm sure the professional coaches would have analysed the differences so they could better develop their charges, maybe one will share his/her views at some stage then maybe I can get my 50 metre scores advancing.

[Richard H]

Richard, clearly it is easier, thats why people achieve higher scores. The question is why is this the case, what makes Air Pistol and an easier match to achieve higher scores than 50 Metre Pistol. It is a valid question and got me wondering why my AP scores are around 540 and 50 Metre around 500!

The causes are probably a combination of many of the factors raised within this thread:-

Range conditions
Live ammunition vs pellet
Calibre
Firearm attributes (e.g lock time, recoil, grip, trigger weight)
ArcAngle of the target (i.e the perceived size)

I'm sure the professional coaches would have analysed the differences so they could better develop their charges, maybe one will share his/her views at some stage then maybe I can get my 50 metre scores advancing.

I was being facetious, if you read my other posts you'd have seen that I really don't think the comparison is that easy or even relevant.

Here's the question I have why does anybody want to comapre AP tp FP?

[AAlex]

Richard,

AP and FP are, indeed, different, but similar. A profficient FP shooter is very likely to do well in AP and vice versa. Not true in AP vs. trap. Both disciplines are slow fire and require same core skills. But of course there are differences in distance / target size / trigger weight / weather factor, etc. that results in difference in the scores.

What I still don't understand, however, why most people (even top athletes and coaches!) think FP is harder simply because the scores are lower. Thats like saying that 100m sprint is easier than 100m swim because you can run so much faster than you can swim. However, being the top swimmer is just as hard being the top runner.

Thats why asked the question about the finals - is it any easier to get into AP finals than FP finals? The only way to compare if one is more difficult than the other is how hard it is to win it!

[Richard H]

I think it has been answered the FP is more difficult because it is not just simply AP scaled up to 50m, there are a lot more factors effecting the outcome in FP than AP.

Actually it is probably easier to get into the FP finals than the AP finals just because the field is almost always smaller for FP than AP. This is not a judgement upon the amount of skill it takes to get in the finals just based on simple math.

[AAlex]

Being a number cruncher, I can see a way whecher it would be possible if FP is really "more difficult" than AP.

One would compile a list of medalists in AP/FP/both from competitions at various levels and apply standard algorithms to the dataset to answer the following question: Does having a medal in FP cause (to some extent) medal in AP, but not vice versa?

In other words, a FP shooter that medals in "hard" discipline of FP would have no problems also snatching a medal in "easy" related discipline AP, while a shooter that medals in "easy" AP does not necessarily easily win "hard" FP.

In your experience, is the above statement true or not? If true, then FP is indeed harder discipline.

[Nicole Hamilton]

For me personally and for other shooters I know who shoot both AP and FP, it's a lot easier to shoot Class A in AP than it is to shoot that in FP which I suppose is one way of saying that FP is harder. Compare, for example, the scores in our AP league to those turned in by some of the same people in our FP matches. (Our AP league runs just 10 weeks/year but we run informal FP matches every Monday year-round and formal matches once/month, so the difference is not lack of practice in FP.)

I find that AP is simply more forgiving of errors than FP and I'm suspicious that it may be related to fact that there's recoil in a FP and almost none in an AP. If your grip or trigger squeeze is off in FP, the recoil seems to magnify the error.

[TomAmlie]

There is one technically sensible reason for FP scores to be less than AP scores. The FP target is proportionately smaller. If you scaled the AP target for 50 meters, the 10 ring would be 75.5 mm (based on a 4.5mm pellet; slightly different if adjusted for .22). The official 50m target 10-ring is 50mm. This means that a 10.0 on an AP target would be equivalent to a good solid 9 on the FP target. (this of course assumes that my computations are correct).

Some of you may recall a discussion some time ago regarding reduced-distance targets. The 10m AP target is pretty darn close to a free pistol target scaled for 50 feet. Perhaps someone here with some idle time will try to shoot a round of AP at 50 feet (on a 10m target) and compare it to their FP scores.

Beyond that, I personally really have trouble with my FP trigger release. Based on my current skill (or lack thereof) I would be much better off with a 2-stage trigger like that on my Morini 162. Although I expect to improve with training, I am still extremely shy about putting any weight at all on my FP trigger, which leads to a less-than-smooth release. A 2-stage trigger would allow me to settle onto the trigger a little more confidently.

[Chris]

comparing a 10m AP target to the 50ft FP target tells you the FP target is harder. I think if one were to shoot free pistol on the air pistol target scaled out to 50ft or 50m it would be fun. I would keep the black the same size and just change the scoring rings. When I go to the range to practice bulleseye I put up a 50yd slow fire target and then shoot free pistol at it. the black is close enough and then i do not waste a target. Sure is nice to shoot lots of 10's and x's. The X ring is about the same size as the FP target 10 ring.

If you were to find a free pistol that would hold a one hole group at 50m it would still be harder. The amount of error you can impart to the air pistol and still hit a 10 is more than the error you can impart to the free pistol to shoot a 10. i think it is about 2x-3x different. Then take into account the fact your free pistol cannot shoot a one hole group and of course it will apprear harder. It can be frustrating. If you work harder at it and focus more on the front site. AP will seem easy. If I could I would shoot way more Free pistol than air pistol.

your pistol will have some impact on your ability to shoot well also. A shorter barrell could help reduce the amount of error the shooter imparts on the bullet. If a person does not have good follow through and they shoot a longer barrel there is a slight impact. I know some people like a shorter sight radius so the visibale movement appears less.

[David Levene]

It seems to me that some people are mixing up difficulty and score levels.

Sure it is more difficult to get a high score at FP but that doesn't mean that FP is more difficult than AP.

It is also not reasonable to say that FP is more difficult just because a specific shooter is ranked higher in AP. How much training and effort do they put into each event?

Even looking at World Class level does not give a true picture. Do all of the top competitors in each event put equal effort into the other event (or even shoot it at all)?

They are similar but separate events. Even though many people with the mindset for one will also shoot the other there is no easy way of comparing difficulty of the event. It is not just a case of number crunching. There are so many other factors to consider.

[Guest]

Difficulty has to do with the goals you set and the amount of effort you are willing to put into achieving that goal. Scores, rankings etc are all arbitrary.

I gained this insight when talking to compund and recurve archers.

[LukeP]

There is one technically sensible reason for FP scores to be less than AP scores. The FP target is proportionately smaller. If you scaled the AP target for 50 meters, the 10 ring would be 75.5 mm (based on a 4.5mm pellet; slightly different if adjusted for .22). The official 50m target 10-ring is 50mm. This means that a 10.0 on an AP target would be equivalent to a good solid 9 on the FP target. (this of course assumes that my computations are correct).

I agree with you.
The different size of bullet diameter proportionally to Ten Ring diameter, is the big difference on score.
AP bullet is like half ten diameter...
FP .22 round is 1/10 ten FP target...
IMHO this is the big differences on score.