TargetTalk

David Levene wrote:

pgfaini wrote:Do the ISSF rules require that the trigger be activated with a finger? How about a button on the thumb rest?

Rule 8.4.2.4.2 says "the trigger is operated by the hand that holds the pistol".

How a thumb button would handle the trigger weight measurement procedure of rule 8.4.2.6 I'm not too sure ;-)

Not an issue with a free pistol, I know the trigger must be touched. This was a response to the High Standard free pistol being developed for the US team, with the light activated firing mechanism. If memory serves me, it was a lot like the light beam safety on the Morini, except that the pistol fired when the light beam was broken. Like those high tech cigarette lighters.

Paul

David Levene wrote:

pgfaini wrote:...... but the direction of movement (vector), of the point contacting the trigger, must be parallel to the axis of the bore, if side forces are to be avoided.

I know what you mean Paul but you have got me thinking (and yes it does hurt).

Do we actually want the movement at the let-off point to be parallel to the axis of the bore.

If we take an extreme example, purely for demonstration, of the trigger being 6" to the left of the barrel. The way I see it, even if the movement was parallel to the axis, this would create a twisting action of the pistol. This would obviously be much reduced in "real-life" but don't we actually want the trigger to move towards the pivot point of the barrel i.e. not parallel to the axis.

I hope this makes sense. If not, blame it on the very nice Bordeaux I just had with dinner.

I would suggest that "parallel to the axis of the bore" is not necessarily the critical consideration.
In a line to the opposing force (i.e. the contact between the grip and the web between the thumb and index finger) is required

Spencer

Spencer wrote:

I would suggest that "parallel to the axis of the bore" is not necessarily the critical consideration.
In a line to the opposing force (i.e. the contact between the grip and the web between the thumb and index finger) is required

Spencer

This is true, but the line of opposing (and equal) force must be parallel to the bore axis, because when the shot breaks, the force will no longer be equal, and the force applied to the grip will be greater, and if not in line, will throw the shot off.
Paul

Spencer, On reflection, I'll withdraw my last post. Building up a grip, or rotating an adjustable one, in order to align the sights upon raising the pistol, doesn't seem to cause movement of the sights upon trigger let off.
Paul

Aha!

I am more than ready to agree that getting the line of 'pull' parallel to the axis (and in the same vertical plane) is a good thing, but not as critical as in a line to the opposing force - and none of these is as paramount as consistency (training, and lots of it).

The vector mechanics gets to be a real consideration for shooters whose hand/grip combination is less than ideal, and not many shooters are happy to have the grip frame 'modified' by cutting and grinding...

Spencer

This topic has generated some of the most erudite discussion I have seen...

Now, I am going to try and talk about this without pictures:

In a simplified manner, each joint in the finger operates as a lever rotating about a pivot point (I know it is really not a point, but for the sake of simplicity and the effective way that function works, let's go with it). The pivot points are at the juncture of each joint (proximal, central and distal - that is proximal=the joint closest to the palm; central=the next one out and distal= the one that is at the end that has the 'fingerprint' on it)'

The proximal joint essentially provides the 'reach' to the trigger and is usually at something like 20 to 30 degrees from being straight .

The central joint then is about 50 to 60 degrees furher in angle to allow the distal joint to show an angle of 15 to 25 degrees to contact the trigger.

If you add all f these angle up, you total somewhere around 90 degrees from the hand bone - that means that the finger can essentially come straight back on the trigger.

What's the point of all this? Well, if you then look at the rotational vectors of all of the pivot points you can determine a finger/trigger relationship that will allow the very least horizontal (across the gun at 90 degrees) vector possible.

So:

Too long a reach for the trigger = rotational vector away from the hand (to the left for a right-handed shooter; too short will pull the opposite direction.

and:

Relative placement of the distal joint can compensate either direction as well.

I opine that there is virtually an individual sweet spot for each shooter in trigger length and position of the distal pad at the break point that results in the absolute minimum of rotational error.

Then:

How do we determine that spot? Sadly, trial and error.

Long winded, yes?

Have fun with this...

Tillman -
"He is educated beyond his intelligence" quoted from my friend, Joe Funaro

Just felt like adding some extra material for your studies...

I often refer to making the firing of a ten the most natural event you can. The more natural it is to fire a ten, the easier and therefore the more often you will achieve that goal. What is the most natural movement of your trigger finger in firing a gun? Believe it, or not, the most natural is a continuous contraction of your finger to the point of ignition. Sounds a lot like the definition of a good trigger operation, doesn't it? The troubles come in when we try to improve on the natural operation of our finger movement due to outside factors, the main one being our visual criticism. Those who have followed my other posts will see where I'm headed, but I'll go into more detail here as well. How can we determine our most natural finger movement, free from undue influence?

Well, first we must remove the "real time" critique. This will be only temporary while we establish the most natural procedure for our trigger process. The first step is to make sure your gun is totally unloaded and ready to dry fire. In fact, make sure there isn't any ammunition around. Still, remember to keep the gun pointed in a safe direction. Locate a chair where you can sit with the gun held properly with your shooting hand and pointed in a safe direction. Again, check that it is free of ammunition. Now, set it up for a dry fire shot, and with it comfortable in your lap, look at where it is pointed, instead of the gun itself. Operate the trigger in a determined, start to finish, smooth manner. Do this about a dozen times and then start to recognize the time it takes from start to "click." You have now established your natural trigger operation, free from most interference. You still may have some residual mental reservations which may slow it from the truly natural state, but for now it's close enough. After you've established your natural trigger procedure, especially noting its duration, you will have a better test platform for determining your finger (and maybe grip) placement.

Now, you can add the sights back in. When you do, remember to work with the same "natural" trigger procedure you established, but now that you have sights, observe what they do, and experiment with all the factors from the other messages to make them what you want to see. Make changes between shots instead of during shots.

Why do I put so much emphasis on a natural trigger? Because, the more natural, the easier to be consistent. We all agree that consistency is good, right? And, the less natural, the more interruptions we may be hiding. If your trigger operation is slloooww, it may quite possibly be covering up lots of hesitations, due to our critique telling us to "fix" something that is deteriorating in our sight picture. If this is the case, the common tendency is to stop-fix-continue, stop-fix-continue, etc. You can recognize this if you know what your natural trigger operation is, because the stop-fix-continue operation takes longer.

So, equipped with your knowledge of what your own natural trigger operation is like, you can observe your effect on the sights and make adjustments between dry fire shots, instead of during dry fire shots. I like to refer to the sighting system as a "trigger purity indicator." But, you should use them to observe, not to infuence, the operation of the trigger while it is underway.

All comments always welcomed...

Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/

Ed - thanks for joining the conversation.

Item the first - I am producing a dry fire video for use at home to help shooters train on turning targets. It will have NRA sustained fire and 2 second turnng target drills; in addition it will have Internationsl (ISSF)Center Fire Duello and PPC.

My introduction has two warning screens that emphasize being absolutely certain that the gun is NOT LOADED! It also has a "How to Dry Fire" screen that says the same thing again with some additions. None-the-less, I am taking odds on how long it will take before someone takes out their TV screen or computer monitor.

I say all of this in total and complete support of your warnings!

Item the Second - Concerning the term "Observer".

I once wrote a very long winded explanation concerning the transition from "doer" to "observer" when executing a shot. Briefly, we live in the very near past: what we see is NOT what we have, the real event is milliseconds old when we preceive it in our conscious mind. Oddly, we have no idea where the sights are until the gun goes off and our last memory will tell us where the shot hit.

In correlation with that principal if the event is already in the past, the reaction time which is in the tenths of a second creates a far worse situation because we don't know where we are and so we don't know where to go with the sights.

NOW, once the alignment of the sights is within our aiming area, all we do is make the switch from doer to observer until the shot breaks without consious input from us. When that happens, the shot will hit the target within our ability to hold.

In Latin "Cogito; ergo sum." means "I think, therefore I am."

In shooting, it is "Cogito; ergo absum iaculari" which means "I think, therefore I miss."

Tillman
- "Educated beyond his intelligence." per Joe Funaro

Ed - thanks for joining the conversation.

Item the first - I am producing a dry fire video for use at home to help shooters train on turning targets. It will have NRA sustained fire and 2 second turnng target drills; in addition it will have Internationsl (ISSF)Center Fire Duello and PPC.

My introduction has two warning screens that emphasize being absolutely certain that the gun is NOT LOADED! It also has a "How to Dry Fire" screen that says the same thing again with some additions. None-the-less, I am taking odds on how long it will take before someone takes out their TV screen or computer monitor.

I say all of this in total and complete support of your warnings!

Item the Second - Concerning the term "Observer".

I once wrote a very long winded explanation concerning the transition from "doer" to "observer" when executing a shot. Briefly, we live in the very near past: what we see is NOT what we have, the real event is milliseconds old when we preceive it in our conscious mind. Oddly, we have no idea where the sights are until the gun goes off and our last memory will tell us where the shot hit.

In correlation with that principal if the event is already in the past, the reaction time which is in the tenths of a second creates a far worse situation because we don't know where we are and so we don't know where to go with the sights.

NOW, once the alignment of the sights is within our aiming area, all we do is make the switch from doer to observer until the shot breaks without consious input from us. When that happens, the shot will hit the target within our ability to hold.

In Latin "Cogito; ergo sum." means "I think, therefore I am."

In shooting, it is "Cogito; ergo absum iaculari" which means "I think, therefore I miss."

Tillman
- "Educated beyond his intelligence." per Joe Funaro

Hi Tillman,

You wrote:NOW, once the alignment of the sights is within our aiming area, all we do is make the switch from doer to observer until the shot breaks without consious input from us. When that happens, the shot will hit the target within our ability to hold.

Be careful with this part. It can lead to bad habits. If you wait until things look good to begin your trigger operation, you're in that past you talk about. Additionally, you can teach yourself to be hesitant if your level of acceptance is broken in your hold. The ultimate shot process is to have the gun fire when you reach perfection in your alignment and hold. As you say, what we see is history. If we start our trigger at perfection, where will we be when it fires? The newer shooter tries to manipulate the trigger only when the "picture" looks good. If we can learn to initiate the shot prior to perfection, our subconscious can create the environment for that perfection, but only if it can rely on the natural unfolding of our process without our conscious interference. In order to achieve that level, you need to be able to turn loose of the doing before you reach the perceived perfection.

The ultimate “natural” ten is fired by telling yourself to shoot a ten and then doing it, without involving all the critique and fixing. It's the shot that went off before you “thought” you were ready, but looked good and felt good and you can't really explain how it happened, except that your conscious wasn't in the way of your subconscious.

Ready for more...

Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/

Mr. Hall your last comment can take you to the 2650 level. The process I used to get me to that level was quite simple. i took care of stance, position grip .and natural point of aim firsr.Next I did a mental core dump, and rehersed the shot process. the mental rehersal was done at the same rythm as i took to fire a 10.I then raised the gun above the bull, exhaled and lowered the piston to center hold A mental signal was given as the pistol lowered for the trigger finger to begin a steadily increasing pressure . I never thought about the trigger again. Instead I focussed on the front sight and began trying to perfect sifgt alignment. My best shots occured when the gun fired while I was concetrating on correcting a almost undetectable error in alignment . I never think about bad shots nor discuss them with others. Also, i relied completly on my hold .to. .control the size of my group.You will notice that I am not trying to tell you how to shoot, but just how I shoot . Simplify. Fundamentals are fundamentals

Mr Plus
My shooting approach is evolving to almost exactly as you stated above. I read that and said to myself that looks very familiar. Now if I only had time to work on it more in dryfire and at the range.
Jack H

ChrisL wrote:Hmmm,

Interesting thread.

A while ago I started to operate the trigger with the tip of my finger, approximately squarely under the fingernail.

Combined wih a slightly more forward position of the trigger blade, jerking was reduced (but not gone - still a lot of practising needed).

Any others out there doing it so?

Chris.

I think I am one of those 'doing it so' .

My index is flexed at the proximal interphalangeal joint, with the trigger placed forward to that the joint is just over 90 degrees flexion... so that it comes to exactly ninety degrees at the end of the second stage opposite the trigger stop ( this is supposedly the position that the finger wants to take at rest ).

One shooting buddy has a slender hand and rather long fingers , he shoots with his middle joint and not the terminal joint of his index ... both FP and AP and he shoots well.
I think if the gun is held firmly , minimal forces outside of the 'straight back along the barell line ' to one side or the other do not seem to affect alignment .

Let us remember that triggering techniques are aimed at the original intention of the sights remaining steady during let off . So as long as the sights remain steady .. you can do what you like .


Elmas

.

Triviality:

Get a trigger mechanism that does not change applied force before, during, after break of shot and to a large degree (not all) this issue of parallel (force couple imbalance actually) pressure goes away. One huge advantage of the constant-spring-force Morini electronic system.

Much More Important:

Re-engaging Ed and all on the "Last 200 milliseconds" issue again. We had an extensive discussion a few months back on "Positive" vs "Neutral" mental streaming toward shot release.

"Positive:" settled in aiming area, sights perfectly aligned, perfect trigger release and mental process will "guide" (positive stability) the perfectly aligned sights tot eh optimum release point just as the shot breaks.

"Neutral:" settled in aiming area, sights perfectly aligned, subconscious monitoring of wobble (nuetral stability) activates perfect trigger release the proper amount of "lead time" in advance, so as to achieve the optimum release point at the exact moment the shot breaks.

Ed and I have both experimented back and forth with these "philosophies" and never really came to a conclusion as to:

1) Which "technique" (philosophy) was better; not even
2) How the heck anyone could tell (beyond mind set or belief system) which "technique" one was actually using!

So if I remember correctly, our discussion pretty much tapered off into "we'll never know, and does it really make a difference which 'technique' one believes in anyhow?"

That's why I call the "Positive" vs. "Neutral" approaches "Philosophies" more than "Techniques."

So what say you all?

Do we use trigger pressure to tell our subconscious "Now is the time to steer the sights into the optimum area" or does our subconscious use the sight picture/wobble pattern to tell our trigger finger "Now is the time to execute the release of the shot?"

Steve Swartz

I observed Hulet "Joe ' Benner shoot int rapid fire, He placed his finger into the trigger guard until he was applying pressure just outside the middle joint. His hand was so large that the odd finger placement was necessary to allow him to apply pressure straight to the rear.To my knowledge Joe is the only shooter to gold medal in both rapid and precision in the olympics. He was, for many years the pistol coach at West Point. He is now deceased,

Oh how I wish I could have met and shot with people like Joe Benner. My former coach said he shot with Mr Benner and they shared some similar shooting ideas.

Steve Swartz wrote: Do we use trigger pressure to tell our subconscious "Now is the time to steer the sights into the optimum area" or does our subconscious use the sight picture/wobble pattern to tell our trigger finger "Now is the time to execute the release of the shot?"

I think the two pictures do coexist, but they do not 'commute'. That is to say the more the trigger pressure tells our subconscious ... the less the sight picture tells our subconscious .... and viceversa.

There is a sort of indeterminacy relation.

'delta trigger pressure picture' X 'delta sight picture' = constant.

As for the real, physical indeterminacy relation, we can get the best results if we are able to introduce 'bounds' in the 'delta trigger pressure picture' or in the 'delta sight picture'.

Dreams, dreams ....

Ed Hall wrote:Hi Tillman,

[quote"]The ultimate “natural” ten is fired by telling yourself to shoot a ten and then doing it, without involving all the critique and fixing. It's the shot that went off before you “thought” you were ready, but looked good and felt good and you can't really explain how it happened, except that your conscious wasn't in the way of your subconscious.

Ready for more...

Take Care,
Ed Hall
]

This is really the "Zen" way ...

When the shooter the shot and the target are at one .

The Zen way is to eliminate all interference with the above through physical mental and psychological training.

Ah.... one final thing.... Only a Zen Master can shoot like this consistently .. lesser mortals on here have to keep on struggling .

Elmas

.

All previous contributions to this thread still hold (no pun intended) and thanks to all for their thoughts.

I happened upon a Gunny Sgt Zinns comment on another forum that I thought might help a bit - just go straight through as you are moving in to your aiming area - removes chicken finger. Others have expressed the same.

Found out in dry fire that my grip/trigger position was crap. Sights bounced to left every time... and I had not seen that before, likely compensating with muscle control.

Long story short - after much grip trigger etc. etc. sights do not move.

Try it yourself in dry fire... get aligned and just go straight through and see if the sights go anywhere with the rather crude, fast motion and let the thread know what you see.

Tillman

tleddy wrote:All previous contributions to this thread still hold (no pun intended) and thanks to all for their thoughts.

I happened upon a Gunny Sgt Zinns comment on another forum that I thought might help a bit - just go straight through as you are moving in to your aiming area - removes chicken finger. Others have expressed the same.

Found out in dry fire that my grip/trigger position was crap. Sights bounced to left every time... and I had not seen that before, likely compensating with muscle control.

Long story short - after much grip trigger etc. etc. sights do not move.

Try it yourself in dry fire... get aligned and just go straight through and see if the sights go anywhere with the rather crude, fast motion and let the thread know what you see.

Tillman

One exercise I do in this regard is to get aligned (blank card), close eyes, press trigger, open eyes. If alignment has not changed then release, grip, position of trigger finger, etc are OK. If something is wrong I often find that the front sight moves left. I always use this exercise as a final check after assuming stance, grip, checking NPA, before firing.