TargetTalk

Isn't that Dot on the Steyr ridiculous! Dots are good crutches for the lazy and less skilled in NRA games, but are they at all necessary to shoot an airgun accurately? Looks like a program to sell merchandise to newbies.

Betty,
There has been considerable discussion recently on the Bullseye-L board on the subject of iron sights vs red dot sights. I'm sure that Gunnery Sgt Brian Zins would take exception to your characterizing him as 'lazy and less skilled' because he used a red dot sight to win his numerous awards and national championships. The late Don Nygord is on record as saying that he hoped that the ISSF would allow the use of red dot sights.

Pretty hard to call the picture you refer to as a merchandising gimmick, when our host doesn't even sell red dot sights.

Fred

Isn't that Dot on the Steyr ridiculous! Dots are good crutches for the lazy and less skilled in NRA games, but are they at all necessary to shoot an airgun accurately? Looks like a program to sell merchandise to newbies.

Hi Betty:

Please provide me with some background on your comments. I'm willing to learn and if I need to drop my crutches, I'm willing to listen to almost anybody.

Are dot's need to shoot and airgun accurately? No. Are they useful and have application for shooters in other diciplines than Conventional? Can they help an International shooter and the International sports overall? I say YES!

I've shot a lot more Conventional than International (actually only about 4 international matches ever, there is only about 1 a year around here and I thank to Eli Colotta for putting those together) But I have shot in the 570's AP and 530's FP and quite a few cleans on the slow in Standard and Centerfire after climbing off my dot "crutch".

In my opinion, there is not a significant level of "accuracy" increase between the dots and open sights. And they will not increase the skill level (or the score of the competitor) to any appreciable degree. Personally, I find open sights more "accurate"; but they are more mentally and physically challenging than a dot, especially when you're shooting a 1 day 2700 match rather than just 60 shots. And dots are just the ticket for all those dark and dimly lit indoor ranges some of us have to use at times. But a crutch, no way.

In my training, open sights allow the shooter to learn to keep the sights (and the gun) aligned to the best of his ability. That alignment is somewhat harder to see and separate from the wobble with a dot sight.

Dots, on the other hand, allow the shooter the freedom to work on sight picture (dot and target), to help develop a consistent NPA and see their wobble zone better. Personally, I think that shooters that really want to improve, regardless of the dicipline they compete in, will benefit from working with both.

And as Don Nygord mentioned, you will lose a lot of older shooters without them. But they can put their cruthces on and shoot bullseye with me if they want. By the way, my Conventional matches filled to more than 85% of range capacity for all matches last year and I had to turn way people at 3 matches. (How's that International participation coming along?)

Just my 2 cents and if this is too "bullseye" for the list just let me know and I'll just delete it and sign off. By the way, here's my real name and some other info (jsut to let you know the perspective that my comments are based on).

Cecil Rhodes
Conventional High Master and Dot Shooter
2600 Club (OPEN SIGHTS)
2634 (High OPEN SIGHTS)
Presidents 100 (Every Match Entered - OPEN SIGHTS - 9mm / .45)
Distinguished Pistol (Legged in 4 Matches - OPEN SIGHTS - .45)

Most modern international guns have beautiful form. I'll even include the British free pistols with their TV rabbit ears.

The M1911 one of the most elegant historical gun designs.

But the very beautiful Steyr LP50 gets reallllly ugly when you add a Colt M1911 grip to it. Its like putting at tow hitch on a Ferrari.

Bob L
Where do you shoot your International up near Salem.

Jack H - Eugene

Isn't that Dot on the Steyr ridiculous! Dots are good crutches for the lazy and less skilled in NRA games, but are they at all necessary to shoot an airgun accurately? Looks like a program to sell merchandise to newbies.

There is a whole group of people that don't shoot because of eye sight issues. Just because they don't shoot the same as you doesn't make them lazy, your comment just makes you ignorant. I think if the ISSF was smart they would adopt a senior division in both rifle and pistol disciplines that allowed any sight and encourage the older generation to shoot.

By the way I shoot Air Pistol, Air Rifle, Standard Pistol, Free Pistol, Sport Pistol, Center Fire, Sporting Rifle and even tried a little IPSC all with standard sights. I've actually never use a red dot. There seems to be an awfull lot of elitism going on here.

jackh wrote:Bob L
Where do you shoot your International up near Salem.

Jack H - Eugene

International pistol has a very limited following in the area.

I'm shooting on a range in the garage. Neither the Salem nor Albany gun clubs have anything for international pistol. (Albany is a great place if you're interested in class III machineguns!) There used to be a Winter league that shot twice a month during January, February and March at Portland Rifle and Pistol Club.

There are a few interested shooters who are members of the Springfield club.

Oregon State U used to have an open Friday evening for 3-P rifle and I shot free pistol along with another fellow who shot standard.

Occasionally an event is posted in "USA Shooting New."

Bob LeDoux wrote:We are starting to get queries from bullseye shooters. The recent Pardini 45 and 9 x 19 threads don't fit the purpose of Target Talk.

Its right on top of the masthead:

"TargetTalk a place to talk about Olympic style shooting, rifle or pistol, 10 meters to 50 meters, and whatever is in between."

There are plenty of other sites to cover these venues.

How do other readers feel?

I feel that I'm not confused by this: "TargetTalk a place to talk about Olympic style shooting, rifle or pistol, 10 meters to 50 meters, and whatever is in between."

This isn't NRA Bullseye, and there aren't red dot sights on our guns.

Richard Newman wrote:There is another thread which has been going on for a while about encouraging shooters to start shooting Olympic style. Seems to me if a BE shooter is looking at this site, maybe he/she will become interested in International shooting. This board certainly isn't being overrun by BE posts. I think helping and encouraging BE shooters is a good way to recruit. Catch more shooters with help than with rejection
Richard Newman

NRA Bullseye shooters seem to have the ultimate goal of sticking a red dot sight on every gun. If a Bullseye shooter wants to discuss technique, focus, ammo, fine, but any and all pro red-dot comments must be off-topic and should be tossed straight in the dustbin.

I don't want to see ISSF become NRA shooting.

Fred Mannis wrote:Betty,
There has been considerable discussion recently on the Bullseye-L board on the subject of iron sights vs red dot sights. I'm sure that Gunnery Sgt Brian Zins would take exception to your characterizing him as 'lazy and less skilled' because he used a red dot sight to win his numerous awards and national championships.

Why should we care if he takes exception, or not? That's NRA Bullseye, not ISSF/Olympic shooting. I'm sure everyone who wins with a red dot would take exception. So what? It's off-topic NRA red-dot stuff.

Betty is right. There is no truer test of ability than the ISSF iron sight requirement.

[quote="Bob LeDoux"]

International pistol has a very limited following in the area.



There are a few interested shooters who are members of the Springfield club.


[/quote]


Bob L - I'm one of the few in Springfield. We have not had any matches scheduled for a long time. In our area we do have an Atlanta Olympian. Up by you is a triple Distinguished shooter. The local pistol leader and or I would put on some AP if there were more interested. I dabble with 480k for practice. We have 10m trolley retrieved targets all ready to go for a match. Probably would not qualify for a PTO but better than nothing.
I'm off to the range to try some ideas just received for DOT shooting.

"a place to talk about Olympic style shooting, rifle or pistol, 10 meters to 50 meters, and whatever is in between."

You get the point? :-)

The risc with mixing to many types of shooting disiplines in one forum is that we will lose focus and knowledge - targettalk will lose attention from world class ISSF shooters from all over the world. Not very good, right?

jackh wrote: We have 10m trolley retrieved targets all ready to go for a match. Probably would not qualify for a PTO but better than nothing.
I'm off to the range to try some ideas just received for DOT shooting.

Jack,

At one of our ranges in the SF Bay Area, we do USAS sanctioned AP PTOs with the four bull AP target, 3 shots per bull. After 12 shots we walk up and change targets. I'm not fond of doing it this way, but you can see that it doesn't take much to run an AP PTO. Trolley retrieved targets would be a big advance for us!

FredB

[quote]Jack,
At one of our ranges in the SF Bay Area, we do USAS sanctioned AP PTOs with the four bull AP target, 3 shots per bull. After 12 shots we walk up and change targets. I'm not fond of doing it this way, but you can see that it doesn't take much to run an AP PTO. Trolley retrieved targets would be a big advance for us!

FredB[/quote]


I just got back from the range where the two of us most serious pistol shooters in our club did some 50' bullseye work. I was going to then shoot some 10m AP. However instead we broke out the 50' rapid fire turn rack and I shot for the first time ever some 8-6-4 second strings. I used 208s and a dot. Dot you say? Horrors! Ha! - we even used the smallbore 100yd target!
Now before anyone gets their knickers in a knot. I said the first time ever. It was a hoot. I will shoot more. With irons. And shorts. Remember what I said about your knickers now. Shorts because I have them. Many of them. I stocked up years ago just for potential RF. Then they go and change the rules :( Roddy says that Mel says coming up for the first shot takes a loooong time to perfect. You should try finding the dot that way. When I found it, things went pretty good. Target #2 was actually quite pleasing for all my strings. Targets 3-5 got worse as the clock ticked in my mind.
Anyway, thanks to Target Talk, I had a little of what to expect. And my shooting partner has been there before, but he said the target rack has been stored in the rafters for many years. Going to use it now.
Anyway, what a blast.

For the 50' RF and 10m AP and even 50' FP all we need are bodies. (And someone to run the line :)

Bob LeDoux wrote: There are plenty of other sites to cover these venues.

Other than the Bullseye-L, can anyone please point out some other Bullseye (or other precision shooting) web forums?

Thank you,
walt

See P.M.

Roddy was rangemaster the one year I shot at Springfield. At one pto he had to pick up a free pistol so there would be two shooters on the line.

Programs often work because of one person, a "sparkplug." Generally that person is a good coach with the commitment to make a program work. Sometimes he/she has to go shaking the bushes to attract interested shooters. As the program grows it builds momentum. It creates publicity.

But the commitment comes with no financial return. Often, it intrudes into other interests and family responsibility. These programs often die when the sparkplug burns out or has to return to more pressing issues.

If you belong to a club that has an active international program stop and look at the key individuals that make that program work. If one key person left would the program still exist?

Walter wrote:

Bob LeDoux wrote: There are plenty of other sites to cover these venues.

Other than the Bullseye-L, can anyone please point out some other Bullseye (or other precision shooting) web forums?

Thank you,
walt

I don't know many other pistol forums (other than Brian Zins'). But there are quite a few if you are interested in US and UK-style bullseye rifle shooting, http://www.nationalmatch.us and http://www.long-range.com are the best two.

Walter, try http://www.bullseyepistol.com

Yes, we should stick to international shooting here. Bandwidth is not infinite and this site is slow enough without taking in everyone out there who's punching paper.

Having said that, I think that much of this thread is needlessly us-versus-them. Let's remember that the fundamentals of precision pistol are precisely the same no matter what you're shooting: Steyr, TOZ, or 1911. Red-dots or iron sights are not what make the shooter and at the firing line it's irrrelevant whether you're paying your dues to USAS or NRA.

David

dflast wrote:Walter, try http://www.bullseyepistol.com

David

Where's the forum?