Fred and WRC got it right. Ever work with older Euro males?
It matches my experience when I worked there.
Why are shooting events still sexist?
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, David Levene, Spencer, Richard H
Now, now children. I do believe the lady started off asking about your nationals. Don't start trying to blame the whole of Europe for your problems. Here in the UK women quite often shoot side by side with men and in a lot of competitions they can shoot in (and win) the finals.Bruce Martindale wrote:Fred and WRC got it right. Ever work with older Euro males?
It matches my experience when I worked there.
Rob.
Anbody that knows me, knows that I am pretty much for as much equality as you can stand and for sure don't dislike those of the fairer sex ;^) but I figure I better chime in here since it is my prize money being discussed
Thanks to Nicole to for starting such an interesting thread. I suggest we re-open the discussion over acouple of weiss biers in Bavaria (Nicole was one of the particpants of my first German tour and has expressed an interest in coming again).
Thanks to Mikey and a Guest, for pretty much explaining my numbers and proportionment. The whole cash thing was conceived at the Bianchi Cup, as way to induce more shooters into our sport. If their were more women buying guns across the board, then I could afford to broaden the prize pool a little more. Realistically though, in this case, if I was hard nosed about the prizes I probably would'nt offer female prizes at all, as at the end of the day we probably sell 15 guns to men for every 1 to a lady.
Thanks to Nicole to for starting such an interesting thread. I suggest we re-open the discussion over acouple of weiss biers in Bavaria (Nicole was one of the particpants of my first German tour and has expressed an interest in coming again).
Thanks to Mikey and a Guest, for pretty much explaining my numbers and proportionment. The whole cash thing was conceived at the Bianchi Cup, as way to induce more shooters into our sport. If their were more women buying guns across the board, then I could afford to broaden the prize pool a little more. Realistically though, in this case, if I was hard nosed about the prizes I probably would'nt offer female prizes at all, as at the end of the day we probably sell 15 guns to men for every 1 to a lady.
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Nicole Hamilton
- Posts: 477
- Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2006 1:17 pm
- Location: Redmond, Washington, USA
- Contact:
Hi, Scott. Sorry to have put you in the spot of feeling you need to justify your own generosity. Just to be clear: Anyone giving away his/her own money ought to be able to give it away however they damn well please. And the proper response is "thank you," not a kick in the teeth. So my quarrel isn't with you at all; I mentioned the prizes only because they'd caught my attention and caused me to think about the problem generally of sexism in the Olympics and leading up to them. If I'd been thinking more clearly, I'd have edited out any mention of your prizes, just so as to avoid anyone misinterpreting my remarks as being about anything but the Olympics and the Nationals. So please accept my apologies.
Other contributors made some interesting comments about the NRA being far more gender-neutral in organizing competitions but that the USAS and ISSF are more successful in attracting women participants. I agree. This is my observation also, so in the rest of this post, I'd like to focus on that.
My personal sense is that the NRA does try harder to attract women, but that they're not doing as well for several reasons. For starters, the NRA's message is more mixed: It's not just about shooting sports, it's also about protecting the second amendment and the right to self defense. Every poll always shows a clear gender divide on this issue, with women being far more likely to favor gun control even though women are also far more likely to be victims of violent crime and, logically, should be more in favor of concealed carry. The problem, as a friend pointed out to me last night, is likely that equality for women is a liberal position whereas support for the second amendment is a conservative one. By dodging the question how one might actually engage in shooting sports if gun ownership were illegal, the USAS and ISSF offer a more "antiseptic" message that probably is easier to sell to women.
Second, the NRA and USAS/ISSF differ in their messages regarding the shooting sports themselves. When I mention to women friends that I shoot, pretty often the first thing they want is the assurance, "But you don't hunt, do you?" They want to know if I kill Bambi, and they're always visibly relieved when they learn I just like making holes in paper. So the NRA's support for hunting tends also to be more distancing for women than men. But even when it's just about organizing a match, there's a tendancy for the NRA to at least appear to be more about shooting higher power guns with more recoil than women, especially, those just entering the sport, may feel comfortable with. Mind you, I love a gun that can produce a big bang and huge fireball, which is why I've got three 1911s, a couple .357s, two .44 mags and even a Desert Eagle in .50AE. But as anyone who's met me can attest, I'm probably just odd. Most women don't want to shoot anything punishing. Guys on the other hand, seem to view it as a test of manhood: "What? Me admit that's too big a gun?" So the fact that women perceive Olympic shooting to be more about air guns and small caliber precision shooting also tends to make for a message that's more marketable to women.
Finally, the NRA just isn't very competent in their marketing to women, setting aside their message. For example, when I bought an NRA Life membership, they sent me a leather jacket. Guess what? It's a guy's jacket, complete with extra room for a guy's pot belly! What are the odds I'm ever going to wear that? Similarly, I'm all the time getting solicited to sign up for their women's magazine. Have you seen it? It's stuff like how to cook a possum. I just don't know many women that want to do that!
Other contributors made some interesting comments about the NRA being far more gender-neutral in organizing competitions but that the USAS and ISSF are more successful in attracting women participants. I agree. This is my observation also, so in the rest of this post, I'd like to focus on that.
My personal sense is that the NRA does try harder to attract women, but that they're not doing as well for several reasons. For starters, the NRA's message is more mixed: It's not just about shooting sports, it's also about protecting the second amendment and the right to self defense. Every poll always shows a clear gender divide on this issue, with women being far more likely to favor gun control even though women are also far more likely to be victims of violent crime and, logically, should be more in favor of concealed carry. The problem, as a friend pointed out to me last night, is likely that equality for women is a liberal position whereas support for the second amendment is a conservative one. By dodging the question how one might actually engage in shooting sports if gun ownership were illegal, the USAS and ISSF offer a more "antiseptic" message that probably is easier to sell to women.
Second, the NRA and USAS/ISSF differ in their messages regarding the shooting sports themselves. When I mention to women friends that I shoot, pretty often the first thing they want is the assurance, "But you don't hunt, do you?" They want to know if I kill Bambi, and they're always visibly relieved when they learn I just like making holes in paper. So the NRA's support for hunting tends also to be more distancing for women than men. But even when it's just about organizing a match, there's a tendancy for the NRA to at least appear to be more about shooting higher power guns with more recoil than women, especially, those just entering the sport, may feel comfortable with. Mind you, I love a gun that can produce a big bang and huge fireball, which is why I've got three 1911s, a couple .357s, two .44 mags and even a Desert Eagle in .50AE. But as anyone who's met me can attest, I'm probably just odd. Most women don't want to shoot anything punishing. Guys on the other hand, seem to view it as a test of manhood: "What? Me admit that's too big a gun?" So the fact that women perceive Olympic shooting to be more about air guns and small caliber precision shooting also tends to make for a message that's more marketable to women.
Finally, the NRA just isn't very competent in their marketing to women, setting aside their message. For example, when I bought an NRA Life membership, they sent me a leather jacket. Guess what? It's a guy's jacket, complete with extra room for a guy's pot belly! What are the odds I'm ever going to wear that? Similarly, I'm all the time getting solicited to sign up for their women's magazine. Have you seen it? It's stuff like how to cook a possum. I just don't know many women that want to do that!
I see little reason for pistol events to be separated and past performance by women in shotgun and rifle would seem to support their ability to compete in them. There is no biological reason why women cannot effectively shoot free and rapid fire pistol. And I see little reason to ban women from free and rapid, or men from sport pistol. I suspect that the impetus for separation was more ego that egalitarian.
USAS rules are essentially the ISSF rules with a few add-ons for our funky way of measuring things. As a consequence, the rules reflect the ISSF gender philosophy. USAS does provide a way for competitions to bridge the gender restrictions. Rule 3.2 allows organizers to declare a competition as an open one. Should the NC be run as an open competition too? Certainly. Participation is so dismal that letting everyone shoot everything wouldn't be a terrible feat. I make frequent use of the 'open' option when organizing competitions locally.
Larry
USAS rules are essentially the ISSF rules with a few add-ons for our funky way of measuring things. As a consequence, the rules reflect the ISSF gender philosophy. USAS does provide a way for competitions to bridge the gender restrictions. Rule 3.2 allows organizers to declare a competition as an open one. Should the NC be run as an open competition too? Certainly. Participation is so dismal that letting everyone shoot everything wouldn't be a terrible feat. I make frequent use of the 'open' option when organizing competitions locally.
Larry
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Steve Swartz
Howzabout USAS shoot the match(es) gender-neutral, record national level scores, places, award prizes, etc. etc. based on the sixty shot performance . . . and simply use the first 40 shots for "ISSF purposes?"
Hey, change happens only *after* someone works the bugs out and demonstrates that "the new way" can actually work.
I would also like PTO scores to be "parallel reported" to the NRA; but then again, I am one unreasonable, demanding SOB . . . =8^)
Steve Swartz
Hey, change happens only *after* someone works the bugs out and demonstrates that "the new way" can actually work.
I would also like PTO scores to be "parallel reported" to the NRA; but then again, I am one unreasonable, demanding SOB . . . =8^)
Steve Swartz
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Fred Mannis
- Posts: 1298
- Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 8:37 pm
- Location: Delaware
Joint Match
Has anyone run a joint USAS, NRA Registered, AP match? I am trying to work my way through all the bs in the rule books. Perhaps Larry's suggestion about using Open may be the way to go.
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smoking357
- Posts: 48
- Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 3:47 pm
If men played women's tennis, it would become men's tennis.Anonymous wrote:Perhaps Nicole can lead the charge by campaigning to allow men into the HIGHLY lucrative womens tennis and golf circuits...
I'm sure she will get a lot of support from the women in this area.
Porcine Pete
Did you not read Nicole's comment about "stand there and pull a trigger"?
Schwarzenegger has no real advantage over Nicole Hamilton at "standing there and pulling a trigger."
She has a point.
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Patrick Haynes
Pool Size: Men vs. Women in Shooting Sports
Hi.
I'm not sure if the issue has been directly raised or not. Placing women shooters against men shooters would be unfair for the reason that the current pool of men shooters is significantly larger than the pool of female shooters.
Individually, yes, men and women can achieve the same high standards in shooting. But, I think that when one group has a numerical advantage, you have better odds of finding superior talent from within that group.
Until you get the competitive shooting population at 50% male and 50% female, merging the events will be to the detriment of women.
As a related sidenote, some shooting events at the Paralympics are fully integrated for men and women. That being said, I suspect that the medal count favours the men.
Best regards.
Patrick
I'm not sure if the issue has been directly raised or not. Placing women shooters against men shooters would be unfair for the reason that the current pool of men shooters is significantly larger than the pool of female shooters.
Individually, yes, men and women can achieve the same high standards in shooting. But, I think that when one group has a numerical advantage, you have better odds of finding superior talent from within that group.
Until you get the competitive shooting population at 50% male and 50% female, merging the events will be to the detriment of women.
As a related sidenote, some shooting events at the Paralympics are fully integrated for men and women. That being said, I suspect that the medal count favours the men.
Best regards.
Patrick
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Patrick Haynes
Re: Pool Size - Stats from several mixed Paralympic events
Here are the actual numbers:Patrick Haynes wrote: As a related sidenote, some shooting events at the Paralympics are fully integrated for men and women. That being said, I suspect that the medal count favours the men.
Athens 2004 Results:
http://www.athens2004.com/en/Paralympic ... =SH0000000
SPORT PISTOL MIXED SH1
- Bronze, Silver, Gold - apparently all male (sex not ident., but names appear male)
FREE PISTOL MIXED SH1
- Bronze, Silver, Gold - apparently all male (sex not ident., but names appear male)
Sydney 2000 Results:
http://www.paralympic.org/release/Main_ ... game_id=12
SPORT PISTOL MIXED SH1
- Bronze, Silver, Gold - apparently all male (sex not ident., but names appear male)
FREE PISTOL MIXED SH1
- Bronze, Silver, Gold - possibly 1 male and 2 females
Atlanta 1996 Results (note: only Men's and Mixed events - no women's only events)
http://www.paralympic.org/release/Main_ ... game_id=11
SPORT PISTOL MIXED SH1
- Bronze, Silver, Gold - apparently all male
FREE PISTOL MIXED SH1
- Bronze, Silver, Gold - apparently all male
Barcelona 1992 Results:
AIR PISTOL MIXED SH1
- Bronze, Silver, Gold - 2 male and 1 female
FREE PISTOL MIXED SH1
- Bronze, Silver, Gold - apparently all male
SPORT PISTOL MIXED SH1
- Bronze, Silver, Gold - apparently all male
Seoul 1988 Results:
Men and Women shooting events - nothing mixed.
So, with 9 medal events listed and 27 possible medals, it appears that women won approximately three. In Paralympic shooting, as in able-bodied shooting, there are more male participants than female participants. Women are able to produce the scores (medals prove that), but the males have a numerical advantage.
Just some thoughts.
Patrick
Re: Joint Match
There are two issues, one minor and one that could be a showstopper.Fred Mannis wrote:Has anyone run a joint USAS, NRA Registered, AP match? I am trying to work my way through all the bs in the rule books. Perhaps Larry's suggestion about using Open may be the way to go.
1) The first is easy, you could easily collect two entry fees and sanction under both organizations
2) You can only sanction if the rules are in sync, which from my experience in only air rifle, they are not. They are getting a bit better, but they still have some conflicts. How do you abide by the rules if they are different?
Nicole , I.m new to the sport and dont know the history or reasoning behind the descisions . That said , all the male shooters I have talked to think the sexual segregation is pretty stupid . The guys I've talked to think it has to do with politics ( eastern European , third world and Islamic ) and with the ISSF being a wee bit archaic . I'm guessing that if changes were ever proposed , some would defend the status quod tooth and nail .
Chris
Chris
I shoot with cdf and I agree. I think they should go back to being co-ed. But the ISSF looks at the Olympics by the number of events they have. So if it went co-ed even if sport pistol became co-ed they would lose womens AP and AR. I don't think the way things are now they could be replaced by Standard Pistol and Center fire (which would be great). As it was said before the very top women would do great, I have no doubt in my mind, but overall there would be less opportunities for women as it was said shooting unfortunately is a male dominated sport (numbers wise, not talent wise). I personally have probably learned more from the female shooters that I shoot with then the males. The females tend to share more, and seem less caught up in the equipment side of shooting. I wish it did become co-ed because I like Sport Pistol a lot more than Standard Pistol.
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Mike McDaniel
Nicole, have I got a deal for you!
The U.S. International Muzzle-Loading Team is headed to the 2006 World Championships in Bordeaux, France, this August. The team has officially been selected, but there are a few openings left for a shooter who was both good and who tried out aggressively over the next few months.
And while we have a couple of women's rifle events, everything else is mixed.
So here's what you do.
First, go get yourself a good original flintlock duelling pistol. And a pack of 25-meter repair centers.
Second, quickly work up a load that shoots well.
Third, shoot several (at least five) 13-shot groups into the targets.
Fourth, mail the targets in to the USIMLT Qualifications Officer.
Finally, save your money.
If you are any good, we can use you. And with the trip to France this year, we are shooting with a smaller team than usual. Give it a try!
The U.S. International Muzzle-Loading Team is headed to the 2006 World Championships in Bordeaux, France, this August. The team has officially been selected, but there are a few openings left for a shooter who was both good and who tried out aggressively over the next few months.
And while we have a couple of women's rifle events, everything else is mixed.
So here's what you do.
First, go get yourself a good original flintlock duelling pistol. And a pack of 25-meter repair centers.
Second, quickly work up a load that shoots well.
Third, shoot several (at least five) 13-shot groups into the targets.
Fourth, mail the targets in to the USIMLT Qualifications Officer.
Finally, save your money.
If you are any good, we can use you. And with the trip to France this year, we are shooting with a smaller team than usual. Give it a try!
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Nicole Hamilton
- Posts: 477
- Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2006 1:17 pm
- Location: Redmond, Washington, USA
- Contact:
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HBP
We do not need to drag the Third World, or Islam, or Eastern Europe into this equation.
The separation of male and female shooting events lies right in the heart of the ISSF, in Western Europe. In a competitive environment, no western European man likes being beaten by a woman (no matter how modern, or free thinking, or 21st century he might profess to be).
I've been involved in shooting sports for over 25 years, and the fastest way a woman can get herself uninvited to a shooting range is to outshoot her male partner!
The separation of male and female shooting events lies right in the heart of the ISSF, in Western Europe. In a competitive environment, no western European man likes being beaten by a woman (no matter how modern, or free thinking, or 21st century he might profess to be).
I've been involved in shooting sports for over 25 years, and the fastest way a woman can get herself uninvited to a shooting range is to outshoot her male partner!
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Fred Mannis
- Posts: 1298
- Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 8:37 pm
- Location: Delaware
How true. At one time I was actively involved as an NRA Instructor, teaching new shooters basic shooting skills. Many of the people that came were husband and wife. If the wife ended the course shooting better than her husband, they rarely came back, even when it was obvious that the wife enjoyed shooting and wanted to do more of it. More than one commented to me, in private, that they gave it up to keep peace in the family. That was over twenty years ago and perhaps things are different today. But I see few women amongst the new shooters that join my club every year.HBP wrote: I've been involved in shooting sports for over 25 years, and the fastest way a woman can get herself uninvited to a shooting range is to outshoot her male partner!
What a load of tosh <with respect>. Stop trying to blame the rest of the world. Western Europe doesn't dictate how you shoot. The ISSF govern their own events but they are not 'Western Europe' although their headquarters may be there. USAS and NRA govern most of what you guys (and gals) shoot and that's what you need to sort out.HBP wrote:We do not need to drag the Third World, or Islam, or Eastern Europe into this equation.
The separation of male and female shooting events lies right in the heart of the ISSF, in Western Europe. In a competitive environment, no western European man likes being beaten by a woman (no matter how modern, or free thinking, or 21st century he might profess to be).
I've been involved in shooting sports for over 25 years, and the fastest way a woman can get herself uninvited to a shooting range is to outshoot her male partner!
Rob.
BULLHBP wrote:We do not need to drag the Third World, or Islam, or Eastern Europe into this equation.
The separation of male and female shooting events lies right in the heart of the ISSF, in Western Europe. In a competitive environment, no western European man likes being beaten by a woman (no matter how modern, or free thinking, or 21st century he might profess to be).
I've been involved in shooting sports for over 25 years, and the fastest way a woman can get herself uninvited to a shooting range is to outshoot her male partner!
The portrayal of the shooting community of europe as a misogynistic hotbed is completely wide of the mark!
I've been involved in smallbore rifle shooting for over 35 years, and while in the past I've encountered a few 'coffin dodgers' who had their opinions formed pre1930, this kind of attitude does not dominate at all.
The ISSF does have it's troubles, largely because it fails to represent the opinions of it's athletes and coaches. But the gender segregation, which I'm against, is more a problem at the IOC level I think.
Regards, Bruce
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Bill Poole
- Posts: 435
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:50 pm
- Location: Scottsdale, AZ
- Contact:
western europe does not dictate how NRA shoots, they DO have a big say in how USAShooting shoots, since USAS shoots ISSF events per ISSF rules. And ISSF is dominated by europeans.Stop trying to blame the rest of the world. Western Europe doesn't dictate how you shoot.
While USAS can and does modify the rules to suit our conditions (like yard-meter reduced targets) the primary goal of USAS (at least in their landlord's eyes) is to create an olympic team, so significant deviation from ISSF standards is counter to that goal.
Poole
http://arizona.rifleshooting.com/