Mountain Competition Pistols

[losw]

There have been many claims regarding MCP that are so far out there, like the 1 in 5 pistols being stolen. Those claims alone are hard to believe.
What pushes me to not believe anything from them anymore are obviously false claims, for example the one on his website stating that he makes his own frames and slides and that he starts with"solid billets of forged steel". Just looking on his website at the several pics of frames and slides and anyone who has been around this business more than a day can see they are STI by the distinctive ejection port on the slide and the equally unique frame cutout. By going to the STI catalog, http://media.stiguns.com/ProductDocs/Ca ... ts2010.pdf

[GBMaryland]

There have been many claims regarding MCP that are so far out there, like the 1 in 5 pistols being stolen. Those claims alone are hard to believe.
What pushes me to not believe anything from them anymore are obviously false claims, for example the one on his website stating that he makes his own frames and slides and that he starts with"solid billets of forged steel". Just looking on his website at the several pics of frames and slides and anyone who has been around this business more than a day can see they are STI by the distinctive ejection port on the slide and the equally unique frame cutout. By going to the STI catalog, http://media.stiguns.com/ProductDocs/Ca ... ts2010.pdf

Another rumor to debunk...

Actually, it's the other way around, MCP has been contracted to make STI frames / slides. STI is busy with DoD contracts.

I don't recall the full story, but I do know they are using their own CnC programs, not STIs... when last I asked.

Whoops, another rumor debunked.



How do I know:

This came up because in Maryland a firearm must be on the approved Handgun roster before it can be sold here, and I was told that they already made a pistol that was approved in Maryland [the FRAME is actually considered the pistol]. I then asked why I didn't see MCP, and they indicated that THEIR pistol design was being used by STI... and that MCP had been contracted to make them. I even asked if it was their design, or STI's design. I was told they did not modify their design at all, that they were producing slides and frames for STI... not complete pistols. ...STI it appears is busy with DoD contracts.

However, according to MCP, STI is FIRST rate. Period. So I'd have no qualms about purchasing one of thier 1911s... especially if I were looking for an MCP frame / slide for hardball!

I would note that the MCP 1911 Wad Cutter is probably a more accurate firearm. I've asked if MCP will do a hardball gun and have gotten NO a bunch of times.

Additionally, they have also been providing frames and slides to some Swiss and German companies. Again, only the frames and slides, not complete pistols.

As mentioned in the prior post, their receipt of stolen weapons has dropped quite a bit as they don't work on other people's 1911s anymore. They only sell NEW 1911s because it reduces a number of obvious problems. [e.g. receipt of stolen firearms, long turn around times on 1911s]

It appears that some of this was related to the ATF stepping up their involvement in eastern PA. It appears that the City of New York under Bloomberg has pressured the ATF to close MOST of the small FFLs in eastern PA. [It appears that many of them were bad about keeping their books properly.] Furthermore, the ATF was auditing books and CHECKING SERIAL NUMBERS regularly. So, in my old posts, I didn't have the complete story. HOWEVER, if a gun is stolen, or not registered to you, and it's awaiting repair (that's how a pistol is marked in inventory while awaiting work)... the ATF takes over. If you have a problem with it, go argue with them.

I really don't understand the issue here... if a bunch of people are getting upset because a vendor is following the rules as instructed by the ATF, you've got issues. I don't LOVE the ATF, but also wouldn't want to 1) end up in prison because some jack wad sent me a stolen firearm, or 2) loose my hugely expensive business to for the same reason.

Honestly: If you ran a consultancy firm for chemicls and someone sent you a kilogram of cocaine in the mail because you were a biochemist... What?!, you'd just perform the tests and send it back? Or would you call the DEA and cover your ass?

For crying out loud.

[Freepistol]

Another rumor to debunk...

Actually, it's the other way around, MCP has been contracted to make STI frames / slides. STI is busy with DoD contracts.

I don't recall the full story, but I do know they are using their own CnC programs, not STIs... when last I asked.

Whoops, another rumor debunked.



How do I know:

This came up because in Maryland a firearm must be on the approved Handgun roster before it can be sold here, and I was told that they already made a pistol that was approved in Maryland [the FRAME is actually considered the pistol]. I then asked why I didn't see MCP, and they indicated that THEIR pistol design was being used by STI... and that MCP had been contracted to make them. I even asked if it was their design, or STI's design. I was told they did not modify their design at all, that they were producing slides and frames for STI... not complete pistols. ...STI it appears is busy with DoD contracts.

However, according to MCP, STI is FIRST rate. Period. So I'd have no qualms about purchasing one of thier 1911s... especially if I were looking for an MCP frame / slide for hardball!

I would note that the MCP 1911 Wad Cutter is probably a more accurate firearm. I've asked if MCP will do a hardball gun and have gotten NO a bunch of times.

Additionally, they have also been providing frames and slides to some Swiss and German companies. Again, only the frames and slides, not complete pistols.

As mentioned in the prior post, their receipt of stolen weapons has dropped quite a bit as they don't work on other people's 1911s anymore. They only sell NEW 1911s because it reduces a number of obvious problems. [e.g. receipt of stolen firearms, long turn around times on 1911s]

It appears that some of this was related to the ATF stepping up their involvement in eastern PA. It appears that the City of New York under Bloomberg has pressured the ATF to close MOST of the small FFLs in eastern PA. [It appears that many of them were bad about keeping their books properly.] Furthermore, the ATF was auditing books and CHECKING SERIAL NUMBERS regularly. So, in my old posts, I didn't have the complete story. HOWEVER, if a gun is stolen, or not registered to you, and it's awaiting repair (that's how a pistol is marked in inventory while awaiting work)... the ATF takes over. If you have a problem with it, go argue with them.

I really don't understand the issue here... if a bunch of people are getting upset because a vendor is following the rules as instructed by the ATF, you've got issues. I don't LOVE the ATF, but also wouldn't want to 1) end up in prison because some jack wad sent me a stolen firearm, or 2) loose my hugely expensive business to for the same reason.

Honestly: If you ran a consultancy firm for chemicls and someone sent you a kilogram of cocaine in the mail because you were a biochemist... What?!, you'd just perform the tests and send it back? Or would you call the DEA and cover your ass?

For crying out loud.

I live in Eastern PA and I don't see any dealers closing here. I buy from a few who still operate from their house basement. We haven't noticed any BATF agents hiding in the bushes.

The biochemist analogy is a really good one. If I was a drug dealer I would surely send my drugs to have them tested to be certain they were pure. I'd hate to have a law suit against me from users because they had a reaction to my drugs.
Similarly, I also would think if I stole a pistol for a drive-by shooting I'd want to send it to a gunsmith to make it more accurate for the job. That would be much cheaper than to just steal another one or take it from the hands of one of my victims.
If the good Dr. is telling us that his customers are stealing guns to shoot bullseye, I would think he's been breathing in too many machine oil vapors.
Ben

[usmcmba]

There are definitely quite a lot of information being posted here about MCP and Dr. Nick and frankly some of these postings seem to be pure baseless accusations.

What I do know from the years I have dealt with Dr. Nick is that he is a exceptional gunsmith and quite a knowledgeable person. There are times it is hard to get a hold of him or it takes a while to do a job, but at the end, Dr. Nick always deliver. His guns (I have both the 1911 and M9) are by far a work of art that are highly accurate and reliable. I can say that I am always pleased to deal with Dr. Nick. I found Dr. Nick through Gunny Zins and I think having that endorsement from the Gunny says it all.

[GBMaryland]

I live in Eastern PA and I don't see any dealers closing here. I buy from a few who still operate from their house basement. We haven't noticed any BATF agents hiding in the bushes.

The biochemist analogy is a really good one. If I was a drug dealer I would surely send my drugs to have them tested to be certain they were pure. I'd hate to have a law suit against me from users because they had a reaction to my drugs.
Similarly, I also would think if I stole a pistol for a drive-by shooting I'd want to send it to a gunsmith to make it more accurate for the job. That would be much cheaper than to just steal another one or take it from the hands of one of my victims.
If the good Dr. is telling us that his customers are stealing guns to shoot bullseye, I would think he's been breathing in too many machine oil vapors.
Ben

Ben,

I'm going to refraise what I said in an attempt to not keep the war going...

1) My drug dealer example is a REAL HONEST TO GOD example from the late 1980s. The chemist in question DID call local law enforcement, and the feds were brought it. PEOPLE ARE STUPID. I was in the USAF at the time and I remember it vividly. It was one of those "you've got to be kidding me" moments.

2) If YOU stole a pistol, and I get the impression that you aren't the sort, YOU wouldn't tell anyone that you didn't obtain it properly... but it appears alot of people are not as smart you.

....and YES, people have illegally aquired what would be typically considered VERY high end 1911s and sent them to MCP. That's a FACT. ...and they wanted a Bullseye gun. What do you want me to say man?!?!? There are a lot of dumb people out there.

Now, let's address what's going on in PA and how it effects ALL FFL holders:

Michael Bloomberg, the MAYOR OF NEW YORK CITY, is VERY anti-gun.

At somepoint firearms purchased using a "Staw Purchase" method started showing up in NYC with frequency (according to Bloomberg, Hillary Clinton [then a Senator], and Schumer).

The ATF was then presussured to start looking at the books of ALL FFL holders in PA area surrounding the handgun purchases. Moreover, they were instructed to find any technical loophole to close FFL related businesses.

There are two basic ways to do this:

1) Find a major infraction that is a serious violation, arrests the person, charge the person (or business owner), and revoke their FFL. (while they rot in jail...)

However, that draws attention.

2) Find Major and Minor violations and then inform the FFL holder that they will not be charged if they willing surrender their FFL.

That doesn't draw alot of attention, and it turns out that plenty of FFL holders make mistakes and can be taken to task for it. If you are technically at fault... no one is coming to your rescue.

My understanding is that #2 happened a number of times, and than many FFL holders (there were way more than I ever thought) got nailed.

Not because they were the folks involved in the Staw Purchasing (sales in this case), but because of the politics involved.

Only FFLS that had spotless records, good lawyers, or luck to not have been audited harshly didn't have any problems.

....all because some looser in NYC wants to blame the ease of purchasing firearms in PA for his problems. (Which are slight at best with respect to gun issues.) We are NOT in the late 1980s / early 1990s from a crime perspective.

I tihnk if you REALLY start looking you're going to fine a number of people didn't go out of business because of the economy.

Anyway, it's all public record, you should be able to get the information.

[GBMaryland]

There are definitely quite a lot of information being posted here about MCP and Dr. Nick and frankly some of these postings seem to be pure baseless accusations.

What I do know from the years I have dealt with Dr. Nick is that he is a exceptional gunsmith and quite a knowledgeable person. There are times it is hard to get a hold of him or it takes a while to do a job, but at the end, Dr. Nick always deliver. His guns (I have both the 1911 and M9) are by far a work of art that are highly accurate and reliable. I can say that I am always pleased to deal with Dr. Nick. I found Dr. Nick through Gunny Zins and I think having that endorsement from the Gunny says it all.

I would have to say that your assessment is spot on.

[Freepistol]

Another rumor to debunk...

Actually, it's the other way around, MCP has been contracted to make STI frames / slides. STI is busy with DoD contracts.

I don't recall the full story, but I do know they are using their own CnC programs, not STIs... when last I asked.

Whoops, another rumor debunked.

Okay, GBM "war" is over after you explain this quote from the STI web site:

Warranty Statement
STI International, Inc. manufactures all of its own components except pins, springs, scopes, and our outsourced firearms, the Spartan and the Texican. The suppliers of these purchased parts are reputable manufacturers with whom we have long term business relationships. We are, therefore, supremely confident in the fit, form, and function of every firearm and firearm part that we ship to our loyal customer base. With that in mind, we unconditionally warranty our products for their intended purpose, when installed properly, As with any product, abuse and normal wear are excluded.

http://www.stiguns.com/BusinessPractices.php

I just got off the phone from talking to STI and they said all their frames are made in house and MCP makes nothing for them.
Ben

[GBMaryland]

I just got off the phone from talking to STI and they said all their frames are made in house and MCP makes nothing for them.
Ben

Maybe they are no longer doing business... maybe they have an NDA and what I overheard I shouldn't have... maybe it was short term work... I've got no idea.

Either way, it really doesn't change the fact the MCP makes their own pistols using their own designs.

I've seen them being cut, or at least as much as you can see them being cut when submerged in coolant.

It doesn't change a thing.

[TKnSA]

I live down the road from STI and know Dave Skinner (owner) and several engineers. I asked. They told me they make MCP frames and slides.
STI will make any parts you need if the quantities are high enough.

[GBMaryland]

I live down the road from STI and know Dave Skinner (owner) and several engineers. I asked. They told me they make MCP frames and slides.
STI will make any parts you need if the quantities are high enough.

Then you would be familiar with a guy nick named "Rabbit," that had MCP make STI about 100 frames and slides when one of their Toyota milling machines went down?

My understanding is that MCP and STI have a good working relationship.

My further understanding is that both STI and MCP purchased speicifc CnC programs from Browning to start with and that's why their pistols are so similiar.

[GBMaryland]

BTW: To the other person that was giving me a hard time about Brian Zins testing pistols, being injured, etc. (The person that mistakingly quoted me as saying that he was testing "every" pistol...)

One of my phone calls also revealed that Brian hasn't fully recovered by an injury he sustained. As such, he is not shooting this year at Camp Perry.

Instead, he'll be selling his line of ammunition and enjoying the event. I was instucted the mention that if anyone here wants to continue to make up non-sense, they can feel free to come an speak with him at the MCP stand about STI, the manufactuing processes of the pistols, the huge freaking machine shop that MCP makes their pistols in, the huge investment in industrial reloading equipment that Brain and Dr. Nick have made, etc.

It appears that he HAS been testing pistols and his ammunition at MCP, but that he's been sandbaging them to reduce the stress on his arm.

Oh, and one of the other folks astutely pointed out that he didn't win all of his championships with MCP pistols, just the last three.

[GBMaryland]

After posting my situation to the former Bullseye-L, my money was returned.

BTW: during one of my phone calls today, I brought this up and indicated that if someone had my money and didn't hear back, I'd be PO'ed.

The folks at MCP indicated that they were going to probably stop accurizing 92SFs at this point (finishing whatever they have in stock), for this very reason, and then work on the Brigadier (sp?) slides after they get Gunny Zins ammo rolling.

They are asbolutely concerntrating on their 45ACP and 9mm match 1911s, Gunny Zins ammo, and the DoD contracts they have.

[usmcmba]

MCP is a sponsor of Brian Zins, like Aimpoint and Lapua, he's not Dr. Nicks business partner. MCP has licensed his name for that one pistol they offer. Don't bring him into this, he doesn't have any other involvement with MCP and you shouldn't be claiming otherwise.

It is obvious this person has no clue what he is talking about, just look at this http://cheaperthandirt.com/blog/?s=zins+

specifically:

"CTD: Now that we are on the subject of your ammo, let’s talk about that for a minute. How did it get started?

BZ: Well my gunsmith-slash-doctor, said he wanted to start making ammunition. He told me he wanted to go into business with me, and it would be my line of ammunition. He said he would help with the funding, and getting everything up and running. He has the shop and the space to do it. So we have all our stuff, all our components, and we are making ammo. Right now, we are only doing match grade .45, 185 grain jacketed hollow point. We have a custom blend of gunpowder as well."

So it seems, Dr. Nick is not only Brian's gunsmith, business partner but also his doctor too? It is a pity this "guest" who posted the above could not speak intelligently about the relationship between Dr. Nick and the Gunny yet he chose to do so. Just examples of some of the bad info that seem to be on this post against one of the best gunsmiths there is.

[losw]

I picked up some of the ammo at Perry. I did not get the results expected so used the range chronograph, velocity was down around 700 FPS instead of the 820 advertised. Used 2 differnt pistols and the results were about the same.

[LSM]

@losw, well you have some sub-par guns then as zins ammo exceeded my expectation.

[jackh]

Zins ammo chronographed high 600-low 700 fps out of two of my guns. Both made by Toyota. Have not Ransomed it yet, but soon.

[losw]

@losw, well you have some sub-par guns then as zins ammo exceeded my expectation.

I am glad your expectations were met. Your concern for the quality of my equipment is nice, but both these guns ransom in the X ring with the Nosler bullet and 4.2 of BE powder. I understand not all pistols will do as good with all ammo so I give MCP the benefit in the accuracy department.
I brought the chrono out because 4.2 of BE will function these pistols everytime and MCP ammo wouldn't, seeing the velocity lets me know why. That would not be a bad thing in itself, some people are going to like the reduced load and the accuracy will be acceptable and function was eventually achieved with a real light recoild spring. The point I brought up is the ammo was advertised at 820fps and that is what I was expecting.

[losw]

the

[Isabel1130]

Zins ammo chronographed high 600-low 700 fps out of two of my guns. Both made by Toyota. Have not Ransomed it yet, but soon.

I don't know about you guys but I am not inclined to spend 50 cents a round for Zins ammo (or any ammo actually) when I can make ammo that will hold the ten ring at 50 yards for 17 cents a round. If I want a soft load that travels 700 FPS for the short line, I can do those for 11 cents a round.

[jackh]

Zins ammo chronographed high 600-low 700 fps out of two of my guns. Both made by Toyota. Have not Ransomed it yet, but soon.

I don't know about you guys but I am not inclined to spend 50 cents a round for Zins ammo (or any ammo actually) when I can make ammo that will hold the ten ring at 50 yards for 17 cents a round. If I want a soft load that travels 700 FPS for the short line, I can do those for 11 cents a round.

Like Spock says of Kirk, "If he has the time...."