ISSF rule change from 1st January 2013

If you wish to make a donation to this forum's operation , it would be greatly appreciated.
https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/targettalk?yours=true

Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, David Levene, Spencer, Richard H

Forum rules
If you wish to make a donation to this forum's operation , it would be greatly appreciated.
https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/targettalk?yours=true
jhmartin
Posts: 2620
Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2004 2:49 pm
Location: Valencia County, NM USA

Post by jhmartin »

Reinhamre wrote:If you ask the man on the street if weapons should be allowed in private hands you will find that a waste majority votes no. This is the reality political of any party can not afford to neglect. Pistol shooting will be more popular then ever when "the actual projectile" has gone.
Only in the country you live in ... I can state that your opinion is definitely NOT TRUE in the USA

As I've said, If shooting was taken out of the Olympics (and I do not consider laser tag really shooting), 99.9% of the USA would not notice, and we'd still have lots of different opportunities to continue shooting as sport.
User avatar
j-team
Posts: 1374
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2005 2:48 am
Location: New Zealand

Post by j-team »

I think this thread has outlived it's usefulness.
User avatar
Sparks
Posts: 410
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 10:44 am
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Contact:

Post by Sparks »

j-team wrote:I think this thread has outlived its usefulness.
Hey, if you want to get rude, I've just fixed your post. :p
User avatar
Freepistol
Posts: 773
Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2008 5:52 pm
Location: Berwick, PA

Post by Freepistol »

Sparks wrote:
j-team wrote:I think this thread has outlived its usefulness.
Hey, if you want to get rude, I've just fixed your post. :p
Actually, you just broke it:

its   /ɪts/ Show Spelled[its] Show IPA
pronoun
the possessive form of it (used as an attributive adjective): The book has lost its jacket. I'm sorry about its being so late.
Relevant Questions
What Does the Legal Term...What does ITS Stand for?What Is Its?What Is Nafta And Its Pu...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Origin:
1590–1600; earlier it's, equivalent to it1 + -'s 1


Can be confused:   it's, its .


Confusables note
A very common mistake is to write its (the possessive form of it ) when it's (the short form of it is or it has ) is required: It's [it is] unclear what he meant. It's [it has] been wonderful seeing you again. But do not use it's for it has when has is the main verb: It has a strong flavor; use it sparingly cannot be written as It's a strong flavor… An equally common mistake is to use it's for the possessive, probably because ordinary possessives of nouns are formed with an apostrophe: the dog's coat; Mary's cell phone. But the possessive its is a pronoun, not a noun, and, like other possessive pronouns ( his, hers, yours, and theirs ), is written without that particular bit of punctuation: I have to fix my bike. Its front wheel came off.
Greg Derr
Posts: 422
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 7:45 am

Post by Greg Derr »

:)
Marcus
Posts: 158
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 1:09 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Post by Marcus »

Now I really am confused.
User avatar
Sparks
Posts: 410
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 10:44 am
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Contact:

Post by Sparks »

Freepistol wrote:Actually, you just broke it
Nope.
the possessive its is a pronoun, not a noun, and, like other possessive pronouns ( his, hers, yours, and theirs ), is written without that particular bit of punctuation
Hence, "its usefulness" not "it's usefulness".

Or, more on topic, "you're being rude by stating a thread is done when (a) it's not; and (b) that's not your job."

Apostrophes. They're a bitch.
BenEnglishTX
Posts: 326
Joined: Wed May 05, 2010 8:34 pm
Location: Texas

Post by BenEnglishTX »

Reinhamre wrote:If you ask the man on the street if weapons should be allowed in private hands you will find that a (vast) majority (votes) no. ... Pistol shooting will be more popular then ever when "the actual projectile" has gone.
That depends on where you are. In my part of the world, any pollster stopping the average "man on the street" (and women, too) and asking a question like that is quite likely to encounter a sizable percentage of folks who reply "If you want to take my gun, you'll get the bullets first." A substantial percentage of those who answer like that will be wearing a concealed handgun on their person at the same time.

In the U.S., we lose sight of the fact that the Olympics is such a lynchpin in the shooting sports worldwide. One of the previous posters opined that 98% of U.S. shooters don't care about the Olympics. I'd say the number is more like 99.999%. During the run-up to the Olympics and during the events, I tried making a number of posts to other forums where plenty of gun owners gather and, frankly, couldn't convince a single person to tune in.

Coming from that perspective, the irrelevance of the Olympics to the average viewer would be complete if "the actual projectile" were eliminated. Most average people (again, in the U.S.) feel like the whole notion of using one hand with a too-expensive, too-finicky pistol to punch holes in air that are measured by a computer and displayed on a screen to already be so far out of touch with reality that it's not worth watching.

If the actual projectile is eliminated, then, frankly, I'd rather watch a slingshot match with glass bottles as targets. It would be easy to see and easy to understand. It would also be easy to relate to; after all, doesn't everyone remember having a slingshot as a child?

I've stuck with shooting sports through various rule changes that cost me money when legal equipment became illegal. It's a pain but I've done it. I can't imagine anyone sticking with a shooting sport if the powers-that-be take the actual shooting out of it. If there's no projectile, then there's no shooting and a shooting sport without shooting is, well, kinda crazy IMO.

In the rest of the world, is shooting such an unfamiliar experience for the average man on the street that they would accept the notion of lasers supplanting real firearms in the Olympics? This Texan can't wrap his head around that idea but I'd love to hear perspectives from elsewhere.

And if any TT member from one of those countries is ever visiting Houston, PM me. If you can spare a few hours, I'll be happy to take you to an average U.S. shooting range where we can load up the submachine guns (machine pistols to my European friends) and tear the middle out of a few targets. My treat.
Reinhamre
Posts: 453
Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 10:17 am

Post by Reinhamre »

Well I suppose we are not that "trigger happy" here in Sweden :-)

If you apply for a license here today you can not be sure to have the gun in your hand next summer! I have a licence for a LP50E pending and expect a waiting period of at least 8 month. Hence my previus post.
jhmartin
Posts: 2620
Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2004 2:49 pm
Location: Valencia County, NM USA

Post by jhmartin »

Reinhamre wrote:If you apply for a license here today you can not be sure to have the gun in your hand next summer! I have a licence for a LP50E pending and expect a waiting period of at least 8 month. Hence my previus post.
That's a shame. Here where I live, it's 3:44 in the afternoon. I would have just enough time to run up to Albuquerque to the local Sportsmans Warehouse, pick out a pistol, fill out the form, wait a few minutes while they called the info on the form in, pay my money and get back home here with my new purchase before 5:00pm
BenEnglishTX
Posts: 326
Joined: Wed May 05, 2010 8:34 pm
Location: Texas

Post by BenEnglishTX »

jhmartin wrote:
Reinhamre wrote:If you apply for a license here today you can not be sure to have the gun in your hand next summer!...
That's a shame. ...
Yes, it's a shame but it also leads me to question how anyone becomes involved in shooting under those circumstances.

I assume there are clubs where people who are just interested can stop by and be shown a bit of hospitality by those who are already involved. I know if you show up to a shooting match in the U.S. (and this includes most disciplines) and just sorta announce that you're thinking about taking up that particular sort of shooting, other shooters will generally fall all over themselves dragging out their spare equipment to lend it to you and coaching you through a match, hoping to get you hooked.

Still, if having your own firearms requires lengthy legal hurdles, it's a wonder that anyone gets involved at all.

To get back to the thread topic - Perhaps changes that make shooting fun to watch for non-participants is a more valid goal than I previously felt. How else are you going to draw in new blood? Some people will probably be exposed to the shooting sports just once every 4 years, on TV, during the Olympics. If that's so, then making those events into something that excites potential new participants can only be a good thing, right?

As an observer and not a participant (in ISSF sports; I've shot lots of other contests sanctioned by other bodies), I think I should ponder this a bit. I've been loathe to post any opinions because I don't feel I've earned any right to them. Maybe, though, some opinions from a non-participant regarding what might help draw me (and others like me) into the sport may have utility.

I'm not sure but if I do post on this again, I'll do my best not to give needless offense. Now to go off and think awhile...
Isabel1130
Posts: 1364
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:19 pm
Location: Wyoming

Post by Isabel1130 »

Reinhamre wrote:Well I suppose we are not that "trigger happy" here in Sweden :-)

If you apply for a license here today you can not be sure to have the gun in your hand next summer! I have a licence for a LP50E pending and expect a waiting period of at least 8 month. Hence my previus post.



This is even worse than it looks. An LP50E would be availble here through the mail, to a 5 year old with a credit card, in almost every state in the US.
User avatar
bluetentacle
Posts: 139
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 12:38 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Post by bluetentacle »

BenEnglishTX wrote: One of the previous posters opined that 98% of U.S. shooters don't care about the Olympics. I'd say the number is more like 99.999%. During the run-up to the Olympics and during the events, I tried making a number of posts to other forums where plenty of gun owners gather and, frankly, couldn't convince a single person to tune in.
The indifference isn't limited to Olympic shooting. American gun owners don't have much interest in competitive shooting in general. The American gun culture has a long tradition of hunting, self defence, and recreational shooting, but formal competition has always had very few participants compared to the total number of gun owners. We are a nation of plinkers, not competitors.
Reinhamre
Posts: 453
Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 10:17 am

Post by Reinhamre »

Isabel1130 wrote:
Reinhamre wrote:Well I suppose we are not that "trigger happy" here in Sweden :-)

If you apply for a license here today you can not be sure to have the gun in your hand next summer! I have a licence for a LP50E pending and expect a waiting period of at least 8 month. Hence my previus post.



This is even worse than it looks. An LP50E would be availble here through the mail, to a 5 year old with a credit card, in almost every state in the US.
But on the other hand we can have a LP10E in ALL "states" in Sweden :-)
We can sell guns to a private without going through a dealer. It will take time but we can. In other parts of Sweden the license can be issued within weeks so I am in a unlucky spot here.
I am sure that we are allowed some freedom that you do not have in US, it is a thing one have to adapt to. The license part is slow at the moment and we have to renew the license every 5 year so yes it is a real pain in the ass.
Reinhamre
Posts: 453
Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 10:17 am

Post by Reinhamre »

bluetentacle wrote:
BenEnglishTX wrote: One of the previous posters opined that 98% of U.S. shooters don't care about the Olympics. I'd say the number is more like 99.999%. During the run-up to the Olympics and during the events, I tried making a number of posts to other forums where plenty of gun owners gather and, frankly, couldn't convince a single person to tune in.
The indifference isn't limited to Olympic shooting. American gun owners don't have much interest in competitive shooting in general. The American gun culture has a long tradition of hunting, self defence, and recreational shooting, but formal competition has always had very few participants compared to the total number of gun owners. We are a nation of plinkers, not competitors.
A club match in Sweden in my club gathered 17 participants in standard pistol. And there are at least 5 more clubs in this town of 600 000 inhabitants
All six clubs have turnable targets, 50 m and 10m. (Some even Megalink) . At a match here last week 3 junior made over 530 in free pistol, the winner had 542 with two white shots in last serie.
This is what shooting is about in Europe.
BenEnglishTX
Posts: 326
Joined: Wed May 05, 2010 8:34 pm
Location: Texas

Post by BenEnglishTX »

Reinhamre wrote:A club match in Sweden in my club gathered 17 participants in standard pistol. And there are at least 5 more clubs in this town of 600 000 inhabitants
All six clubs have turnable targets, 50 m and 10m. (Some even Megalink) . At a match here last week 3 junior made over 530 in free pistol, the winner had 542 with two white shots in last serie.
This is what shooting is about in Europe.
By contrast, I live in a metro area with a population of about 5.6 million. Within a reasonable drive time I can visit at least 2 dozen clubs or ranges. Those are just the ones I can bring to mind because I'm familiar with them. I wouldn't be surprised if there were 40 clubs or ranges within the same radius; I simply haven't been to them all.

Including rifle, pistol, and shotgun sports, I can choose from more than a dozen competitions per week. If we're talking just pistol, on a monthly basis I could compete in 3 or 4 GSSF indoor leagues, 1 NRA Conventional, 2 IHMSA silhouette, at least 6 IDPA/USPSA/IPSC style matches, at least 3 cowboy action, and a number of unsanctioned club matches.

That's just what I can bring to mind quickly.

The Conventional Pistol matches are the only sort of formal, stand-up-and-hold-the-pistol-in-one-hand events on that list. The range that provides them has turning targets at 25 yards. At the last match, there were 9 participants. (To be fair, turnout gets light when the temp is near 100F and the humidity is so high it's dripping off everything until nearly noon.)

I am aware of no ISSF events, either official or unofficial, that happen anywhere near me. There may be something along those lines at one or more of the local universities but I don't know.

So that's what shooting is like in my part of the U.S. We have so much available to us in so many venues and so many completely different varieties of sports, all coming from so many different viewpoints regarding what's fun, what's a laudable goal, and what's worth our time that it's darn-near impossible for any one person to have even a halfway-complete picture of the entirety of shooting sports available in just this one metro area.

To tie this to the topic at hand, the rule changes -

I disagree mildly with bluetentacle. In the U.S., we do an incredible amount of competitive shooting. Competitive shooters are a minority of total shooters but there's still far more competition than most people realize. But is there anything in the new rules that would make what we see on television every 4 years so attractive that one of those competition-minded shooters would be prompted to think "Hey, that looks cool. I think I'll try that."?

Sadly, I don't think so.

I see several problems but chief among them is an excess of rules. I think it's useful to draw lessons from other shooting sports, so let me illustrate using a U.S.-centric example. Suppose you took it into your head that you'd like to shoot a rimfire target rifle off a bench at targets about 50 yards away and you don't want to be bothered with too many restrictions on what sort of rifle you can use. There are at least 5 sanctioning bodies in the U.S. that offer such matches - Rimfire Benchrest Association, U.S. Rimfire Association, American Rimfire Group, American Rimfire Association, and United States Benchrest. Since you want to shoot a rifle without many equipment restrictions, you can look over the rule books to see what's allowed. For the RBA, the entire technical section of the rule book that defines an unlimited rifle reads: "Unlimited scope power and weight. Firearm must sit entirely on bench and cannot be attached to the bench." If that's too much, there's always the USBR. The entire definition of an unlimited rifle in their rule book is: "Anything goes" followed by a short parenthetical statement that the rifle must be legal under federal, state, and local laws. That's an entire technical rule book section in just TWO words.

Now, look at the ISSF rules for, well, anything. Over in the rifle forum, they're talking about how the buttstock can or can't contact the chest under the as-yet-unseen new rules. I don't pretend to understand it but I do know rules addressing such things are sufficiently "fussy" that the average U.S. shooter would respond to them with a rude gesture, a few curse words, and would then walk away.

The more I read ISSF rules the more I get the impression that they are written by people with the mindset of a custom watchmaker - willing to deal with such minute details as to drive a normal person nuts. Yes, there are a few people who appreciate and will pay stratospheric prices for custom watches. There are shooters and administrators who, I suppose, thrive in environments where people can say, with a straight face, that the way you walk around the venue may have some impact on whether you're in compliance with the rules. Most people, though, just want to be able to tell the time or enjoy a shooting challenge without all the extraneous BS.

I can't see ISSF-style shooting being popular, much less dominant, in any environment where people have a choice. In the U.S., the choice of shooting sports is essentially unlimited. There's something for everybody. In that environment, ISSF-style shooting stands no chance of winning any popularity contests.

If, however, I lived in a country where it took weeks or months to get a license to own a gun, it would be reasonable to get something that is competitive on the world stage and not just locally. Please understand that this is not meant as an insult but it seems to me that for ISSF shooting to dominate, options must be artificially limited. That's not the case in the U.S. and I see nothing in the new rules/guidelines/principles that will make Olympic events more competitive with other shooting sports in the U.S.

The only other people who would put up with such rules are those with a dream of Olympic glory. Nothing will put those people off.

So if the function of these rule changes is to make the sports more telegenic, I think they'll fail. Nothing short of radical simplification that makes the sport visible to the naked eye without having to refer to a video display and thus readily understandable without explanation could do that.

That last sentence needs another long post to explain...but I think I'll sit back and see how badly I get flamed for this post before I dare to try again.
Isabel1130
Posts: 1364
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:19 pm
Location: Wyoming

Post by Isabel1130 »

Ben, I think it was wonderful. I enjoy the ISSF style pistol matches, but not as much as I enjoy the NRA conventional pistol matches. International shooting in the US, has been busy putting itself out of business since USA shooting seperated from the NRA. They are too expensive, too restrictive, and run by a hide bound bureaucracy which has no idea how to attract shooters to the sport or how to keep them. The reason ISSF does well in Europe is because it is the only game in town.... :-)
Reinhamre
Posts: 453
Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 10:17 am

Post by Reinhamre »

You can think the other way around. No matter how ISSF change the rules the olympic style shooting will not gain any more followers because you have a lot of other diciplins to choose from.
My example was from 600 000 inhabitants, small town in US?
Isabel1130
Posts: 1364
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:19 pm
Location: Wyoming

Post by Isabel1130 »

There are only about 20 cities in the US with populations over 600k. Many of the larger ones have such strict gun laws that there are no ranges actually within the cities, except the ones restricted to law enforcement. For the most part people with both the interest in shooting, and the money to buy guns decamped to the suburbs, smaller towns, and the rural areas, about thirty years ago.
BenEnglishTX
Posts: 326
Joined: Wed May 05, 2010 8:34 pm
Location: Texas

Post by BenEnglishTX »

Reinhamre wrote:You can think the other way around. No matter how ISSF change the rules the olympic style shooting will not gain any more followers because you have a lot of other diciplins to choose from.
My example was from 600 000 inhabitants, small town in US?
Excellent point.

I was trying to address the potential of the rule changes to overcome a basic challenge - Can the sport be made sufficiently attractive on TV that people want to watch it? It would be entirely fair to say that my previous post is off-topic because it deals with the potential for the new rules to attract new participants. As I understand it, that's not the goal; the goal is to garner more viewers. I lost sight of that and I'm sorry. However, I still believe that one is a pale reflection of the other and that the rule changes will fail whether the goal is more viewers OR more participants.

As to small towns in the U.S. and the shooting culture there, it depends. In the western U.S., there is a greater proportion of federally-owned land that anyone can use for informal shooting. Organized clubs are available but less necessary. In the more densely-populated parts of the east coast, there are surprisingly large numbers of clubs that have always been there (it seems) as well as indoor, commercial ranges. (Indoor commercial ranges are experiencing a boom in growth in the U.S. with a huge number under construction or planned across the country.)

Generally, then, anyone in a town of 600k probably has easy access to at least a handful of clubs or other places to shoot. The number of formal matches falls off with the population. It's my impression (and it's *just* an impression) that the percentage of the general population in Europe that shoots regularly for fun is far lower than the U.S. but that among those shooters, a far higher percentage are more serious and more competent, compared to the U.S.

That's commendable and I salute those Europeans who go to the effort to overcome legal hurdles and continue to shoot.

But even among them, do you think the rules/principles set forth in the document that started this topic will encourage a greater level of viewership? I've stated my opinion that they won't work in the U.S.; do you think they will help in Sweden?
Post Reply