TargetTalk

Russ wrote: I have a different vision in lessons of value here. First, someone who stated that he needed help with concentration. Few experts accused me with the lack of coaching and teaching skills who supported his initial statement and turned out that his problems were not with concentration, but with the lack of basic fundamental structure knowledge, which I discovered in 15 minutes. It's hard for me to understand what you guys are talking about here.

Second, the most important coaching skills is to discover hidden athlete problems and to accomplish this task, you must have access of unseen information of your student and to know his personality.

I do not have significant interest in following nor further contributing to this discussion, as it is obviously pointless. However when I see myself misrepresented so blatantly it only makes sense to set the record straight.

Russ. I NEVER said that I had trouble with concentration. Here's the exact text of my question:

Gerard wrote: Are you being serious? Listening to complaints will not lead anywhere? So, if a student of yours complains that they are having difficulties with concentration... do you tell them not to complain and then just carry on 'instructing' them in your technique? Or do you grant that there may be some need to discuss the details of their complaint, analyse the problem, and work with them towards solutions?

Do you not see that this was a hypothetical comment? It was a general sort of example, inserted as part of a question regarding your apparent inability to listen, and specifically your assertion that 'complaints' were not useful. Please be so kind as to avoid mis-quoting my comments or using them deliberately out of context. I have not once in this discussion asked you nor anyone else for any sort of coaching help, nor have I posted a single comment regarding any difficulties or 'complaints' on my part.

As I mentioned before I do not have any intention to entertain anybody or waste my time here. I made myself clear I will charge fee to avoid pointless conversations with someone to whom my service is not appropriate (gun collectors, hunters, self defense, recreational shooters or gunsmithing art).

I just finished reading the 6 pages. Actually it was fairly informative, though a bit longer than it needed to be. I think the main point was that once you buy the best equipment you can afford, you should spend your energy on learning. It saves time (a valuable asset) to learn from the best you can afford to be around. Each of the areas of shooting are important. The fundamentals, being physically fit, good equipment that you believe in, and a winning attitude. I would love for Russ to come to Alaska and teach what he knows. I can get past his lack of understanding of American culture in order to get to his knowledge of Pistol shooting. If you are ever in Alaska Russ you have a place to stay, and all the Salmon you can eat ;~)

Thank you AK Pistol. I would love to take the opportunity to come to Alaska and spend time with you. Do you have a place to stay for 3?
Thank you. You have everything in the correct order.

AK Pistol wrote:It saves time (a valuable asset) to learn from the best you can afford to be around.

I couldn't agree more. My point however is that the quality of coaching is not necessarily linked to the price or the shooting ability of the coach.

Dear David.
Please do not paint world in two colors. Besides [b]dramatic effect of black & white picture[/b], there is not too much value for readers. At least we can have four probable outcomes; it can be more with slight adjustments.
Free coaching – no positive effect
Free coaching – drastic positive effect
Paid coaching - no positive effect
Paid coaching - drastic positive effect.
Your extreme position do not explain anything, moreover it make disadvantage for position of any club shooter who has desire but do not have clue what to do with it. I was a part of professional team for many years and I know how to produce constant high level score with less efforts.
If you can please do it, if you can’t please stop talking about at least of this issue: “To pay or not to pay”. It is not really matter.

Russ wrote:Dear David.
Please do not paint world in two colors. Besides dramatic effect of black & white picture, there is not too much value for readers. At least we can have four probable outcomes; it can be more with slight adjustments.
Free coaching – no positive effect
Free coaching – drastic positive effect
Paid coaching - no positive effect
Paid coaching - drastic positive effect.
Your extreme position do not explain anything, moreover it make disadvantage for position of any club shooter who has desire but do not have clue what to do with it. I was a part of professional team for many years and I know how to produce constant high level score with less efforts.
If you can please do it, if you can’t please stop talking about at least of this issue: “To pay or not to pay”. It is not really matter.

Russ,
Davids point was, I thought very clear, so let me paraphrase what I understood from his post;

There are good shooters
There are good coaches
There are coaches that used to be good shooters (or still shoot well)
There is however no connection between shooting ability and coaching ability, and vice versa.

And my own summary

If you want to learn to shoot well go to a good coach, not a good shooter.

So a coach pronouncing how well he or she shoots is meaningless, you should be asking how well their students are shooting.

Rob.

Russ wrote:Please do not paint world in two colors. Besides dramatic effect of black & white picture, there is not too much value for readers. At least we can have four probable outcomes; it can be more with slight adjustments.
Free coaching – no positive effect
Free coaching – drastic positive effect
Paid coaching - no positive effect
Paid coaching - drastic positive effect.
Your extreme position do not explain anything,

Extreme position? What extreme position?

Free coaching can be good or bad.
Paid coaching can be good or bad.
Elite shooters can become good coaches.
Elite shooters can become bad coaches.
Sub-elite shooters can become good coaches.
Sub-elite shooters can become bad coaches.

How is that extreme or where have I ever said anything different?

There is no “OR”
There are too many choices. Please do not push in one OR two directions.

"If you want to learn to shoot well go to a good coach, not a good shooter. :( by Rob ???????

"Elite shooters can become good coaches." by David :(???????

May I suggest you guys Rob & David: Please go together to nearest pub and have a beer and get clear together for this really not important issue first. :)
It is really disappointing to read your controversial points of view for someone who believes you and in your words as experts of this forum. This is really not important question.

Key concept is to teach what is working for your student but not to teach what you believes are.

Russ wrote:There is no “OR”
There are too many choices. Please do not push in one OR two directions.

There is no need for an "OR".

ALL of the statements are true. Which one do you think is wrong?

Russ wrote:It is really disappointing to read your controversial points of view.........

What have I said that is controversial on this thread, unless you believe that someone who disagrees with you is being controversial.

I will tell you more.
Besides you option “OR” there eleventh element available: become real Coach for yourself. How? Stop reading other opinions and believes and start reading professional books. It is enough printed books in today’s market, but it is time consuming project however it is more reliable.

What is opinion? Opinion is some shooters thoughts whose real identity hidden by avatar He is offering help without knowledge of fundamentals, real competitive score performance and etc. most of his statements pure opinions. Be careful just to read them!

What is believes. Someone who gain status of Coach (by education, or licensing or whatever is works to gain this status) and does not have proven records of developing athlete’s at least national level….most his statements are believes.

Russ wrote:I will tell you more.
Besides you option “OR” there eleventh element available: become real Coach for yourself. How? Stop reading other opinions and believes and start reading professional books. It is enough printed books in today’s market, but it is time consuming project however it is more reliable.

"ALL of the statements are true. Which one do you think is wrong?"

Strange that you didn't answer that question. Could it be that you agree with them all?

I'll make the statements slightly differently for you:-

Free coaching can be good or bad.
AND
Paid coaching can be good or bad.
AND
Elite shooters can become good coaches.
AND
Elite shooters can become bad coaches.
AND
Sub-elite shooters can become good coaches.
AND
Sub-elite shooters can become bad coaches.

OK. We can go back to your initial statement.
"I couldn't agree more. My point however is that the quality of coaching is not necessarily linked to the price or the shooting ability of the coach."

What you are trying to imply?

Price is not necessary word here.
Is paid coaching can not be just option from reading about belives or opinions?

What is opinion? Opinion is some shooters thoughts whose real identity hidden by avatar. He is offering help without knowledge of fundamentals, real competitive score performance and etc. most of his statements pure opinions. Be careful just to read them!

What is believes. Someone who gain status of Coach (by education, or licensing or whatever is works to gain this status) and does not have proven records of developing athlete’s at least national level….most of his statements are believes.

Are you guys trying to exclude this option from freedom to choose?
You don’t need to add any emotional value to word option. Please do only pure logical decision!

Russ wrote:OK. We can go back to your initial statement.
"I couldn't agree more. My point however is that the quality of coaching is not necessarily linked to the price or the shooting ability of the coach."

What you are trying to imply?

I would have thought that was obvious but, in case it isn't, I will repeat it here:-

Free coaching can be good or bad.
AND
Paid coaching can be good or bad.
AND
Elite shooters can become good coaches.
AND
Elite shooters can become bad coaches.
AND
Sub-elite shooters can become good coaches.
AND
Sub-elite shooters can become bad coaches.

Russ wrote:Price is not necessary word here.

It is necessary if you read my comment together with the post I was replying to:-

David Levene wrote:

AK Pistol wrote:It saves time (a valuable asset) to learn from the best you can afford to be around.

I couldn't agree more. My point however is that the quality of coaching is not necessarily linked to the price or the shooting ability of the coach.

It is impotant to hear what you think about this statement.
Are you guys trying to exclude this option from the freedom of choice?


Is paid coaching not an option from reading about beliefs or opinions?

What is opinion? Opinion is the shooter's thoughts whose real identity is hidden by an avatar. He is offering help without the knowledge of fundamentals, real competitive score performance, and etc... Most of his statements pure opinions. Be careful when reading them!

What is belief. Someone who gains the status of Coach (by education, or licensing or whatever is works to gain this status) and does not have proven records of developing athletes at least at the national level… Most of his statements are beliefs.

Are you guys trying to exclude this option from the freedom of choice?
You don’t need to add any emotional value to word options. Please have a pure logical decision!

Russ wrote:It is impotant to hear what you think about this statement.
Are you guys trying to exclude this option from the freedom of choice?


Is paid coaching not an option from reading about beliefs or opinions?

I really cannot understand what you are getting at.

Everything I have written seems to be supporting the freedom of choice.

Of course paid coaching is an option. I have absolutely no problem with that, just as I have no problem with unpaid coaching.

What is important is the quality of the coaching, but that is not necessarily reflected in the price being paid or the shooting performance level of the coach.

Now perhaps you would like to comment on my list of 6 statements (which I will not repeat here as 3 times is enough).

Thank you David.
At this point I do not have any problem with you to share your position and list of ypours 6 statements. Initially was only two with only one choice (“OR”)

I'm not sure that I ever said that there were only 2 options but, like you Russ, I am pleased that we now seem to agree.

In my earlier life as a physics prof I often had to advise students on where to go to graduate school. The kids usually wanted to choose on the basis of how many Nobel Prize winners were on the faculty.

I suggested that they look instead at how many Nobel winners the faculty had produced. I think this is in line with David's arguments (including the wry note that you pick the best teacher you can afford to be around).

-pz

Credentials Russ? I am not familiar with your credentials as they relate to the shooting sports. Would you mind providing them? Also if I were looking for a coach, why would you be the best available ?