Do you raise or lower onto target?

[solomon grundy]

I'm just interested to know which method people prefer. Recently I've been experimenting with lowering onto the target - actually lowering to slightly below my POA and then breathing up. Prior to this I've been raising onto the target.

[Freepistol]

I've been experimenting with just the opposite. I've always lowered on the target with optic sights and open sights with a center hold. Now I have a .45 with open sights and use a sub-6 hold. I find I get the gap right by raising to the aiming area.
I've read that most good shooters lower to the aiming area. I guess that defines my ability.
Ben

[Fred Mannis]

I've been experimenting with just the opposite. I've always lowered on the target with optic sights and open sights with a center hold. Now I have a .45 with open sights and use a sub-6 hold. I find I get the gap right by raising to the aiming area.
I've read that most good shooters lower to the aiming area. I guess that defines my ability.
Ben

Some discussion of this question a while back on TT. My take is that, like many things, it is a matter of personal preference. I know one Master class shooter who comes up to the bull, at least in AP and FP. I have never seen him shoot Bullseye. I have experimented with both approaches with both iron and optical sights and find I (slightly) prefer raising to lowering. It feels more efficient and with irons and a sub 6 hold, I find it easier to settle. I also find it easier to initiate trigger pressure before final settle when I raise.

[Freepistol]

. . . . I also find it easier to initiate trigger pressure before final settle when I raise.

That's my observation, too, Fred.

[david alaways]

I was going to post that I always raise to target , I cannot lower to target in Fp or AP. reading Freds post I was reminded that in bullseye at our club you were not allowed to raise than lower (safety reasons). I remember this well because I cannot shot bullseye the way I shoot AP.

[2650 Plus]

NRA 3 gun rules do not specify either, ISSF is very restrictive as to which must be used in most cases. Where permitted by rules I prefer to raise above the aiming point and breathe out as I relax down to my point of aim and settle into my best stillness just before my pistol fires. When I am required to raise to the aiming area i always start the trigger finger moving as my raise reaches the bottom scoring rings . I stop in my aiming area and allign sights until my pistol fires. I had better get the sights alligned quickly because the pistol will fire even if sight allignment is not perfect. Stillness of hold is almost ignored in firing the shorter time limit five shot strings. I hope I have not killed any sacred cows but this is how I do it. Good Shooting Bill Horton

[david alaways]

My post isnt clear (whats new? none of them are ) IN FP and AP I raise into bull. IN bullseye I Raise then lower into bull ( when we have the grouchy rangemaster I get in trouble ). LISTEN TO THIS! a few years ago ahandful of local liberals tried to remove us from our park. We have been in bidwell park over 50 years, the shootgun and archey range are now closed, but we still shoot bullseye and JR. rifle in the club house. They failed to remove us so they built an observatory directly down range about 100 yds. The club doesnt want us to raise our guns above target now. We know what will happen the first time they find a hole in the observatory. Why do I raise in AP&FP then lower In Bullseye?ANSWER I did what was comfortable at the time without even thinking about it, because I didnt know better and it really didnt matter. David

[Spencer]

...ISSF is very restrictive as to which must be used in most cases...

not really - there is an ISSF requirement in 8.6.1.2 Before and during the series, including while chambering a cartridge, or checking or cocking a pistol or revolver, the pistol must always be kept pointing down range and within the target backstop area before returning to the READY position for the next shot, or while awaiting the command “UNLOAD”, but this does not preclude a shooter raising above the target - only above the backstop area.

Spencer

[9XNC]

As far as Bulls eye goes. I was taught early on that it is easier for one to "settle" onto the target if lowering into the black. Thus I have done this for many years now and even a few good years at Camp Perry. When you raise to the target the muscles you are using remain tense from the lift all the way through tthe shot process. By coming just a little over the black it allows the muscles to more or less settle into the black and adjust the muscle tension in the shoulder area.

Not a sermon, just a thought.

BZ

[Steve Swartz]

Brian:

At one of the coaches conferences a while back, the sports med folks at the OTC presented an article that addressed this (indirectly).

Seems like "abduction" vs. "adduction" (which side of the muscles are lengthening vs. shortening) combined with increasing vs. decreasing tension on a muscle plus a bunch of other technical stuff . . . all added up to the basic principle that for FINE MOTOR CONTROL

- Lengthening the muscle (vs shortening) and
- Decreasing tension (vs increasing tension)

was best.

So

If we are "relaxing down into" the target (vs. "tightening up into the target") is actually more stable and allows faster time to reach a "settled" condition.

sorry I missed this thread earlier but it had apparenlty sunk out of the range of my window!

Even for Duell stage of CF, I have found it helps me if I "swing through" the center of aiming on the way up, begin applying trigger pressure as I "sag into" the right spot . . .

[Freepistol]

Steve,
How much of a "sag" is considered enough? If I would pull up to the bottom of the black in Free and then drop to a sub 6 area of aim, is that enough or do I need to go higher?
Thanks!
Ben

[david alaways]

Good question!

[Fred Mannis]

Steve,
How much of a "sag" is considered enough? If I would pull up to the bottom of the black in Free and then drop to a sub 6 area of aim, is that enough or do I need to go higher?
Thanks!
Ben

I've been trying to experiment with that. The distance is set by the rate at which you are applying pressure to the trigger. So if you start applying pressure at the top, say into the black, then you had better be at your sub 6 settle by the time the gun fires. The distance needed is also a function of your rate of 'sag'. I have been trying to control the 'sag rate' by breathing out. Normally I don't pay much attention to my breathing, so it feels complicated.

[CR10XGuest]

I think I'll add a comment or two here. All is personal opinion and what works for me and what I expect from competitors at a match.

First and foremost, do not raise your gun above the backstop. I've seen and stopped and suggested and tried to get people that chamber the first round and / or point the gun somewhere between the moon and sun when they get ready to shoot every damn time. Stop it now. It ain't safe and you don't need to do that. Just because you saw some "bullseye master" do it because he saw someone else do it that way 20 years ago doesn't make it right or safe. Point the gun at the backstop or ground to get the grip set, chamber and get ready raise to the target.

You don't even have to hold the gun point anywhere else to insert the magazine either. This ain't an combat match reload and you don't have to be able to look all the way to the bottom of the mag well to get it right.

Second, from that position, please feel free to raise the gun as much as you want up to the level of the safe backstop, but no further.

Third, I have found and agree with Steve's comment that lowering is better for fine control. BUT, it lowering doesn't have to be 3 - 5 feet. Simply enough "sag" to let the muscle inpulses (whatever) transition to "fine" control is enough. I ain't no sport's doc, but if you have to point the gun at the noon day sun and start lowering from there to "feel" good, there may be other problems that need looking at.

Therefore, for me, that means raise from bottom to slightly above the black (but still on the target) and lower to the center or 6:00 or sub-6 as the case may be. In addition, this method (as apposed to 12:00 salute style) will consume less energy, which can be a factor over the course of a 2700 match.

Please just remember, sometimes it ain't what you want or how you feel, but what the match director and range office need see to ensure a safe match.

Good luck.

Cecil

[Steve Swartz]

IIRC it was a combination of time and distance to transition from the "lifting" (bad) configuration tot he "lowering" (good) configuration.

I don't remember all of the conversation.

What I had written in *my* notes was this:

- Issue of reset?
-- High lift over: will be reset by the time you get there (but takes too long and you will arrive tired)
-- Low lift over: will need 1-1.5s to reset fully- eyes get tired?

- Best reset: Lift to top of target frame, pause, "sag" vs. "lower"

O.K. what I *think* I meant was that the "height of the lift over the desired aim area" was a tradeoff between lifting too high and not high enough.

Going back in my notes I also found that by "sag" (vs. "lower") I was talking about "lowering" = an exercise in "pointing" while "sag" = an exercise in "relaxing" from an already stable wobble.

I changed my techique to this: Raise to taop of target frame, pause to acquire sights and get initial settle/take up trigger, then relax and let the aligned sights droop into the sub-six area. Then the trigger goes off . . .

For CF and SP rapid, I don't go quite as far up, and I am more agressive ont he trigger pressure during the sag.

Hope that helped . . .

[BPBrinson]

Just more supporting evidence: The National Pistol Coach told one of our juniors on this subject after he observed him stopping on the bottom of the target, " Watch ISSF.tv and do as the best in the world do." In watching the footage ALL raise over and sag, no exceptions.

Brooks

[Freepistol]

I just watched the Free Pistol final

http://www.sfc.pistolcanada.ca/index.ph ... cle&id=191

and there are some very high lifters there.

[steyrlp10]

I prefer that gravity take its course, so with iron sights, I lower. Using optics is another story!

[Fred]

I prefer that gravity take its course, so with iron sights, I lower. Using optics is another story!

I had no idea that optics negate gravity. Amazing!

FredB