Defining Different Holds from Illustration

gordonfriesen · Post by **gordonfriesen** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:06 am

David Levene wrote:Putting the sights "somewhere below the black" is a bit too vague for some.

Sure works though!

Oz · Post by Oz » Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:38 am

A. Center Hold
B. 6 Hold (6 O'clock Hold)
C. Nygord Sub-6 Hold*
D. Sub 6 "Area" Hold**

* Position is determined by matching the space between the top of the blade and the bottom of the black target area to the open space on either side of the blades.

** Position is determined by the individual shooter and will vary. It can include positions just lower than the Nygord Sub-6 Hold, through "Deep" Sub-Six positions as low as the outer ring of the target area.

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 3:17 am

Just going slightly off-topic Oz, do you really shoot with such a small amount of light either side of the front sight.

If so, are you able to hold it without one side disappearing at times during the aiming process.

If you can then you have my congratulations.

(Before you ask, several times what you have shown)

Spencer · Post by **Spencer** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 4:00 am

Ah, David! It is a long time since we were in our twenties...

while experimenting (i.e. fiddling) with various sight combinations this week I had one combination on the venerable GSP-H that was very similar to Oz' examples - outcome, 4 out of 5 shots that were brilliant (for me) and the odd shot approx 50mm out of the group. Damn the aging process.

Spencer

jim greer · Post by **jim greer** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 5:45 am

B. 6 O'clock hold

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 8:54 am

Spencer wrote:Ah, David! It is a long time since we were in our twenties...

Thanks for cheering me up Spencer ;-(

spacepilot · Post by **spacepilot** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:01 pm

Oz wrote: D. Sub 6 "Area" Hold**

Oz, IMHO to better portray what the shooter sees (or is supposed to see according to the others on this forum) using the sub-6 hold, the sights should be made clear, and the bull should be blurred (more blurry than the bulls in ABC, in both the horizontal and vertical directions). The idea of an area hold is to aid the shooter's almost exclusive focus on perfecting the sight alignment.

Oz · Post by Oz » Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:13 pm

David Levene wrote:Just going slightly off-topic Oz, do you really shoot with such a small amount of light either side of the front sight.

If so, are you able to hold it without one side disappearing at times during the aiming process.

If you can then you have my congratulations.

(Before you ask, several times what you have shown)

Often, the most obvious things go unnoticed! The pistol I'm using was originally used by the University of Utah Pistol Team - Junior Olympians and collegiate national competitors. So yes, those 18-21 year old eyes probably loved the tight sights... I'm in my mid 30's now. I don't have any focusing issues... yet. I understand that my time will come.

This set up has been good so far. As the pistrol drops into hold, it's usually a minor adjustment because one side might be black, but after the hold settles down there is no issue with either side going black. Well... unless I've had ANY caffeine less than 3 hours before I shoot (That issue could be another large topic). Then both sides tend to go in and out of black a LOT. I give up, go storming back in the house swearing off of caffeine forever. Until the next day ;)

I do take out my contacts and put on a set of old glasses to shoot. I'm guessing that the glasses could be so out-of-prescription, they are suited to crisp clean sights and not so good for seeing the target ;)

I'll modify the illustration to reflect what is more likely an average of the spaces most use.

Oz

Oz · Post by Oz » Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:28 pm

spacepilot wrote:
Oz wrote: D. Sub 6 "Area" Hold**

Oz, IMHO to better portray what the shooter sees (or is supposed to see according to the others on this forum) using the sub-6 hold, the sights should be made clear, and the bull should be blurred (more blurry than the bulls in ABC, in both the horizontal and vertical directions). The idea of an area hold is to aid the shooter's almost exclusive focus on perfecting the sight alignment.

I appreciate the feedback and it has triggered a thought. I'll attempt once more to illustrate the elusive and mystical Sub-6 Hold.

Oz

MDK · Post by **MDK** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 11:36 am

I can't describe my hold like this pictures. Maybe it's a Nygord sub 6, but if I look at the space between the top of the blade and the botton than I'm not looking the sights. (Yes, the botton is more blurry!)

(sorry for my english)
best regards

edster99 · Post by **edster99** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:03 pm

I had a session last night trying the sub-6. varied from lovely tight groups, to vertical strings over 1/2 the black. God I hope it gets better

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 6:57 am

Some AP and FP shooters use a "bottom of target hold". And they produce some very good scores.

Another option is aiming at "lover half of the bull hold". That is aiming at a "black are", somewhere the low 9 to low 8 are below dead center. Thus aiming at an area, rather than an exact point.

And some shooters use a high 9/low 10 hold for the black duelling target, rather than the exact centre of that target.

PETE S · Post by **PETE S** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:00 am

Using an area hold is somewhat counter intuitive. In AP, the 10 ring is not an absolute point there is more than one way that a hole in the target will score a ten. Even in air rifle, where one must hit a dot; hitting the dot does allow the shooter some slight lack of absolute perfection.

But most important to hitting the same hole in the target is not the position of the front sight on the target but the sight alignment. Sight alignment comes from the wrist. Any slight movement in the wrist and your sights are out of alignment and you have a very wide variation on the target. Keep the wrist joint stable (sight alignment) and your variation decreases greatly.

If you are aiming at the same hole on the down range target, it is impossible to see your alignment. Sure, you see the silhouette of the sights and you think they are lined up. But you are just not seeing the misalignments and movement of the front sight relative to the rear sight (think wrist joint movement) because your attention is down range.

You have to become aware of the front sight moving in the rear, and do drills to first see that movement, and then do drills to reduce it.

JohnL · Post by **JohnL** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:13 pm

Perhaps the most objective way of describing how deep your deep-six is would be to state how many clicks you turned the sight adjustment screw when you changed from six to sub-six or deep-sub-six (assuming you went that route). I am in the process of doing this so I would be intersted in hearing what others did. (My Steyr moves 1.2 mm / click - I am guessing most manufacturers guns are in the same ball park.
JohnL

Aus Guest · Post by **Aus Guest** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 9:48 pm

Just to confuse the issue further I know a couple of shooters who use a centrehold to area aim.

Their comfortable area is the black. They follow the same shot procedure they would if area aiming sub 6 o'clock just with black instead of buff behind the sights.

edster99 · Post by **edster99** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:43 am

A week or two on I have discovered that if you are going to do it, then full commitment is a bonus - i started with too little a gap, when I went for a deeper and more comfortable hold, results improved. At least I'm back to previous scores, with scope for lots of improvement when I can maintain my concentration and physical control! It helps to remember everything else that you normally do at the same time, as the change can overload your brain. I'm shooting at an open comp Sunday so i'll see how we go.

TargetTalk

Defining Different Holds from Illustration

Two more ´holds` used

counter inituitive

number of clicks?