and one thing really strikes me. It's the unbridled joy that the beneficiaries and their supporters have over his misfortune.
What I'm about to say will not sit well with some, but in my shooting circles, we always say that there is no joy in beating someone who didn't have their best day. In other words, if you have a crummy performance or make a colossal mistake and I beat you, it takes the shine off my performance. I want to beat you on your best day.
I'm sure not everyone will agree with what I just said, and so be it. But to yell and celebrate because a guy who's clearly better than you messed up and gave it away strikes me as low class.
Stan
I just watched the video of the last shot and the aftermath
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, David Levene, Spencer, Richard H
They celebrated because they won, it had nothing to do with what he shot. Should everyone else be sad because, lets face it he's now put in a similar performance twice. Matt's mistake is someone else's gain, that is what sport is, competing is all about capitalizing on your opponent's mistakes. I could understand your attitude if someone caused him to shoot a 4.4, its not like was even a malfunction or anything else, the others won fair and square they should be able celebrate just as he would have had he won, and took advantage of their mistakes.
To be critical of others winning celebration is really poor sportsmanship, which knowing Matt would have no part of. Matt is still probably one of the best shooters in the world unfortunately he just couldn't close the deal and on that day he wasn't the best, for the match is decided on 70 shot not 69.
Another thing, it was a mistake opposed to a misfortune, misfortune has the connotation that he had no part in the outcome, when in fact he is solely responsible for the outcome just as he would have been should he have won.
I agree there is no joy in beating someone who looses because of some fault not of their own, broken equipment, a bad bullet, but just because some one shoots a 4.4 well, I'd even agree that some of the joy might have been taken off in Athens winning on his crossfire.
I know it thee polite thing we all say that he's the best and all but lets face it, if he was the best he would be wearing the gold now and he would have in Athens too. On both days he wasn't the best the best was the guy that could handle the pressure and not shoot a 4.4 or crossfire. What's really sad is that people take away from their performance, they beat him they didn't cheat. I doubt he'd be slagging someone else's achievement.
To be critical of others winning celebration is really poor sportsmanship, which knowing Matt would have no part of. Matt is still probably one of the best shooters in the world unfortunately he just couldn't close the deal and on that day he wasn't the best, for the match is decided on 70 shot not 69.
Another thing, it was a mistake opposed to a misfortune, misfortune has the connotation that he had no part in the outcome, when in fact he is solely responsible for the outcome just as he would have been should he have won.
I agree there is no joy in beating someone who looses because of some fault not of their own, broken equipment, a bad bullet, but just because some one shoots a 4.4 well, I'd even agree that some of the joy might have been taken off in Athens winning on his crossfire.
I know it thee polite thing we all say that he's the best and all but lets face it, if he was the best he would be wearing the gold now and he would have in Athens too. On both days he wasn't the best the best was the guy that could handle the pressure and not shoot a 4.4 or crossfire. What's really sad is that people take away from their performance, they beat him they didn't cheat. I doubt he'd be slagging someone else's achievement.
Last edited by Richard H on Mon Aug 18, 2008 1:24 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Another guess
If He is that good, he won't mess up
At least not twice in a row.
and certainly not at his skill level.
He choked. He is not good enough to get enough a bronze medal, accept that.
and certainly not at his skill level.
He choked. He is not good enough to get enough a bronze medal, accept that.
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David Levene
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Re: I just watched the video of the last shot and the afterm
I think you are wrong Stan. Their overall performance was better than his, and they were perfectly entitled to celebtrate.IPshooter wrote:and one thing really strikes me. It's the unbridled joy that the beneficiaries and their supporters have over his misfortune.
To win a gold medal your overall performance must be better than anyone else's. In both Beijing and Athens his last shot dragged his overall performance down below that required to win. 129 good shots is not enough to win.
I still feel extremely sorry for him. I also feel sorry for all of the shooters whose nerves, whilst not being so obvious as Matt Emmons', caused them to shoot below expectations throughout the match. The result was the same, they didn't win a medal either.
So it's would be ok to celebrate if someone shoots a string of 8's but not if they shoot a 4?
I understand your point, but I am pretty sure that he did shoot his best. It appears to me he shot the whole match and only made one mistake. I wish I could say that about any match I have ever shot.
My heart goes out to Matt, but congratulations are still due to the winners of the match. Any Olympic gold medal is a HUGE accomplishment.
Steve Turner
I understand your point, but I am pretty sure that he did shoot his best. It appears to me he shot the whole match and only made one mistake. I wish I could say that about any match I have ever shot.
My heart goes out to Matt, but congratulations are still due to the winners of the match. Any Olympic gold medal is a HUGE accomplishment.
Steve Turner
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1813benny
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and the sacrifices....
In my view, they were not celebrating his poor shot. They were celebrating their achievement of winning an Olympic medal.
To even make the Olympic squad takes an incredible commitment of time and dedication to achieve the highest status and represent your country..
Before you want to criticize, think about the elation of winning a medal after all of that hard work.
You'd be elated and acting the same way. Also remember that they are reacting to the electronic scoring.....suddenly their name appears in the 1st, 2nd or 3rd position, their coach appears and tells them they won a medal.
Congratulations to the winners. And kudos again (unfortunately) to Matt for being a class act even in defeat. Not many world class athletes are that type of role model.
To even make the Olympic squad takes an incredible commitment of time and dedication to achieve the highest status and represent your country..
Before you want to criticize, think about the elation of winning a medal after all of that hard work.
You'd be elated and acting the same way. Also remember that they are reacting to the electronic scoring.....suddenly their name appears in the 1st, 2nd or 3rd position, their coach appears and tells them they won a medal.
Congratulations to the winners. And kudos again (unfortunately) to Matt for being a class act even in defeat. Not many world class athletes are that type of role model.
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1813benny
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Re: If He is that good, he won't mess up
It's a shame that there are posts such as this one. Nobody has posted that he was robbed of a medal or that it was not his fault. Even he is open about the fact that he made a mistake.Another guess wrote:At least not twice in a row.
and certainly not at his skill level.
He choked. He is not good enough to get enough a bronze medal, accept that.
Choked....I guess that it's a perspective that one can have, especially if you are sitting on the sidelines and have never competed at that level or have felt that type of pressure of winning a major match, let alone an Olympic medal.
I had to laugh at the statement that "he is not good enough to win a bronze medal." Yes, he failed on that day to win a medal, but to state that he is not good enough, well, that must just be your attempt to kick someone while they are down.
Some people have class...others don't. Your call......
They weren't celebrating Matt's misfortune, they were celebrating because they got a medal that they thought they weren't going to get.
I didn't really see any bad sportsmanship from them, a couple of them even went up to Matt and shook his hand and consoled him.
They all had very respectful words afterward when questioned about it as well.
"It was accidental, these things happen in sport," said Sukhorukov. "I once shot a zero in a World Cup in Russia. I feel sorry for him."
Debevec added: "Shooters are human and can make mistakes. He was very nervous, maybe because of what happened in Athens."
I didn't really see any bad sportsmanship from them, a couple of them even went up to Matt and shook his hand and consoled him.
They all had very respectful words afterward when questioned about it as well.
"It was accidental, these things happen in sport," said Sukhorukov. "I once shot a zero in a World Cup in Russia. I feel sorry for him."
Debevec added: "Shooters are human and can make mistakes. He was very nervous, maybe because of what happened in Athens."
It's not a competition of what you 'could of', your in competition against what people actually do.
Wether it was a mistake or it was pressure, would the argument be more valid if he'd won with a shot giving him a 0.1 lead, ie still a bad shot, but just enough to win... surely by that logic he shouldn't be happy and none of his team?
It's rough, your dissapointed, and I would think the Chinese are justifiably estatic. They did all they could and won an Olympic Gold... and there's nothing you can take away from that, full stop.
Wether it was a mistake or it was pressure, would the argument be more valid if he'd won with a shot giving him a 0.1 lead, ie still a bad shot, but just enough to win... surely by that logic he shouldn't be happy and none of his team?
It's rough, your dissapointed, and I would think the Chinese are justifiably estatic. They did all they could and won an Olympic Gold... and there's nothing you can take away from that, full stop.
I agree, that Matt is one of the best shooter in the world and I am sorry for him too, to have a bad last shot, and therefore he couldn't win a medal.
I was teached for my shooting: " We add after the last shot."
And really it makes no difference if a shooter shot 2 times a 7. something at the first shots, like Debevec or a 4.4 at the last shot like Matt.
All what counts is the end result.
For Matt: Your last shot will always be a ten.
Greetings from Germany
Ursula
I was teached for my shooting: " We add after the last shot."
And really it makes no difference if a shooter shot 2 times a 7. something at the first shots, like Debevec or a 4.4 at the last shot like Matt.
All what counts is the end result.
For Matt: Your last shot will always be a ten.
Greetings from Germany
Ursula
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Guest10001
What about the rest of the U.S. Rifle Squad?
Matt basically led the U.S. rifle squad, singlehandedly. What happened to everyone else? Is he the only one capable on the rifle squad of medaling?
I personally think the U.S. rifle team and it's leaders need to take a good, hard look at what happened here at Beijing.
I personally think the U.S. rifle team and it's leaders need to take a good, hard look at what happened here at Beijing.
Guest10001 wrote:
Were they all Gold? ... No ... oh well
What exactly needs the "hard" look?
Do you have a gripe w/ the selection process & quota slot filling?
The Mission Statement?
(careful ... that last is a leading question)
The next quad starts now. I think you can be sure that all, from the grassroots working with 8 year olds, all the way up to the USAS staff have started thinking & acting.
I think what happened is pretty obvious. Remember the USOC gave USAS a goal of 6 medals ... accomplished ... would the US be happy if we had more ...sure.I personally think the U.S. rifle team and it's leaders need to take a good, hard look at what happened here at Beijing.
Were they all Gold? ... No ... oh well
What exactly needs the "hard" look?
Do you have a gripe w/ the selection process & quota slot filling?
The Mission Statement?
Are you from the US? Coach? Shooter? Observer?Prepare American athletes to win Olympic medals, promote the shooting sports throughout the U.S., and govern the conduct of international shooting in the country.
(careful ... that last is a leading question)
The next quad starts now. I think you can be sure that all, from the grassroots working with 8 year olds, all the way up to the USAS staff have started thinking & acting.
I think the US team did pretty good. Emmons' 2nd and 4th, Beyerle came very close to a medal in the 3P and got into the final in the air rifle. Anti was also very close to the final of the prone.
You gotta remember that the difference between possibly getting a medal and even getting into a final can be just 1mm, one 9.9 instead of a 10.0 in qualification can do that in shooting. It isn't like other sports where there are one or two competitors who are just physically way ahead of the rest of the pack and hence constantly end up on top in every event they go to.
The most consistent shooters like Potent, Qinan, the Emmons', Du, Aivazian, Pfielschifter, Galkina, still aren't getting medals in every world cup, in fact, they don't even make the finals in every world cup. They would still be considered some of the most consistent, top rifle shooters. Just shows how difficult it is to be a top shooter and how easy it is to NOT get a medal.
You gotta remember that the difference between possibly getting a medal and even getting into a final can be just 1mm, one 9.9 instead of a 10.0 in qualification can do that in shooting. It isn't like other sports where there are one or two competitors who are just physically way ahead of the rest of the pack and hence constantly end up on top in every event they go to.
The most consistent shooters like Potent, Qinan, the Emmons', Du, Aivazian, Pfielschifter, Galkina, still aren't getting medals in every world cup, in fact, they don't even make the finals in every world cup. They would still be considered some of the most consistent, top rifle shooters. Just shows how difficult it is to be a top shooter and how easy it is to NOT get a medal.
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Dean Peterson
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- Location: San Jose, CA
The Last Shot
I think, hope, that every shooter wants to win knowing that every opponent put forth their very best effort.
What is the point of competing if we don't try to do our best.
I hope that Mat feels that he (even with his last shot) put forth his best effort too. I don't know Mat, but I think he would not deny the accomplishments of ALL of the medalists.
The reusults are UNDENIABLE - the victory is clear and the awards are absolutely correct. The winners deserve our respect and applause.
But it is also undeniable that but for ONE persons error - and not THEIR achivement alone, these results would have been much different. Who would ever count a victory from someone elses failure so sweet as a victory from the toughest opponent on their best day.
And the error was made by someone CLEARLY capable (favored even) of capturing the victory with a significant lead. There was NO DOUBT in my mind that going into the final in second place, with a dominate standing score in the preliminary, meant Mat was favored to win...........eveyone on the line must have known this too.
No one would have even blinked if the #7 seed had done the same thing.
The only reason that final was truly significant was because Mat shot in it, Mat was clearly favored to win; and because of Mat in Athens.
Everyone there KNEW the outcome of Athens - EVERYONE there was waiting for Mats LAST SHOT. When Mat fired the the crowd cheered because EVERYONE was watching Mat shoot and they knew what his last shot represented - they were cheering about what everyone feared or hoped for. The cheering would have been all the more significant and the victory so much more appealing ( I think) if Mat had shot a 9 or 10 on his last shot.
All of the medalists deserve our unqualified respect for their performance. We did not compete, they did.
But, privately and only in the minds of those who participated, they must be telling themsleves that they have to work harder to earn a gold medal.
How could anyone come away thinking any differently?
10 years from now - most will remember what Mat did and few will remember who took home gold silver or bronze.
I doubt Mat wants to be remembered this way - who would. But even the medalists will ALWAYS remember Mats performance; what could have been - if only. They will never escape it.
This is just some of the baggage from this moment.
Dean
What is the point of competing if we don't try to do our best.
I hope that Mat feels that he (even with his last shot) put forth his best effort too. I don't know Mat, but I think he would not deny the accomplishments of ALL of the medalists.
The reusults are UNDENIABLE - the victory is clear and the awards are absolutely correct. The winners deserve our respect and applause.
But it is also undeniable that but for ONE persons error - and not THEIR achivement alone, these results would have been much different. Who would ever count a victory from someone elses failure so sweet as a victory from the toughest opponent on their best day.
And the error was made by someone CLEARLY capable (favored even) of capturing the victory with a significant lead. There was NO DOUBT in my mind that going into the final in second place, with a dominate standing score in the preliminary, meant Mat was favored to win...........eveyone on the line must have known this too.
No one would have even blinked if the #7 seed had done the same thing.
The only reason that final was truly significant was because Mat shot in it, Mat was clearly favored to win; and because of Mat in Athens.
Everyone there KNEW the outcome of Athens - EVERYONE there was waiting for Mats LAST SHOT. When Mat fired the the crowd cheered because EVERYONE was watching Mat shoot and they knew what his last shot represented - they were cheering about what everyone feared or hoped for. The cheering would have been all the more significant and the victory so much more appealing ( I think) if Mat had shot a 9 or 10 on his last shot.
All of the medalists deserve our unqualified respect for their performance. We did not compete, they did.
But, privately and only in the minds of those who participated, they must be telling themsleves that they have to work harder to earn a gold medal.
How could anyone come away thinking any differently?
10 years from now - most will remember what Mat did and few will remember who took home gold silver or bronze.
I doubt Mat wants to be remembered this way - who would. But even the medalists will ALWAYS remember Mats performance; what could have been - if only. They will never escape it.
This is just some of the baggage from this moment.
Dean
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Roy Hill
Yeah, Emmons sure is a big choker, isn't he?
I mean after all, of the the three Olympic medals that US men's rifle shooters have won in the last three Olympics, he's got only TWO of them.
Only two of the three US medals in men's rifle in the last three Olympics....jeeze, what a choker!
(For the humor impaired, if you listen really really closely, you might hear some sarcasm dripping.....maybe......possibly)
Roy Hill
I mean after all, of the the three Olympic medals that US men's rifle shooters have won in the last three Olympics, he's got only TWO of them.
Only two of the three US medals in men's rifle in the last three Olympics....jeeze, what a choker!
(For the humor impaired, if you listen really really closely, you might hear some sarcasm dripping.....maybe......possibly)
Roy Hill
Two out of those three is great but four out of the 5 would have been so much better. Also he has one gold but had three of them within his grasp.Roy Hill wrote:Yeah, Emmons sure is a big choker, isn't he?
I mean after all, of the the three Olympic medals that US men's rifle shooters have won in the last three Olympics, he's got only TWO of them.
Only two of the three US medals in men's rifle in the last three Olympics....jeeze, what a choker!
(For the humor impaired, if you listen really really closely, you might hear some sarcasm dripping.....maybe......possibly)
Roy Hill
Is he a choker - I don't know. Something went badly wrong in the 3p finals that's for sure and although once is an accident, twice is indicative of something not quite right. That said the guys a phenomenal rifle shooter and I don't doubt he will overcome any 'problems' over the next 4 years.
I just hope our (GB) guys can match him for 2012 !
Rob.