Those of you who fire different ammo in practice versus matches... Can you switch right over with no ill effects (provided no sighting adjustments are needed)? Or do you need a few rounds to "season" the barrel to the new ammo?
On the same note, how about for accuracy testing? When switching from one to another do you need to fire a few before shooting for groups? I think cleaning the barrel (running patches through, etc...) between brands is a bit excessive, as my bores seem immaculate even when "dirty". Though I guess it makes for an even baseline....
Thoughts?
Switching ammo in .22's - need a few rounds to acclimate???
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FP570 plus
Well it depends. Ammo makers do not all use the same specs. If you were switching from CCI to Eley or similar I would clean the chamber and barrel. The length of the case/bullet will leave a small carbon ring in the barrel which could give you some function issues in a standard pistol. In a free pistol you may have issues with closing the block.
Now if you switched from one brand of Eley to another you should be OK since they use the same dimensions on all their ammo.
Lapua Midas does not ie: large/med/small chamber rounds.
Now if you switched from one brand of Eley to another you should be OK since they use the same dimensions on all their ammo.
Lapua Midas does not ie: large/med/small chamber rounds.
Re: Switching ammo in .22's - need a few rounds to acclimate
You should replicate your matches in training as far as possible. So use the same ammo for both. It also messes with your head switching to 'special, expensive, competition' ammo.MSC wrote:Those of you who fire different ammo in practice versus matches... Can you switch right over with no ill effects (provided no sighting adjustments are needed)? Or do you need a few rounds to "season" the barrel to the new ammo?
On the same note, how about for accuracy testing? When switching from one to another do you need to fire a few before shooting for groups? I think cleaning the barrel (running patches through, etc...) between brands is a bit excessive, as my bores seem immaculate even when "dirty". Though I guess it makes for an even baseline....
Thoughts?
Rob.
Rob.
FP570 - I'm not so concerned about the functioning, due to rings forming, etc from different length cases. I've got a Hammerli 280 that digests anything and everything, never had an FTE/FTF switching between 5 or 6 brands. So I guess I'm lucky in that respect. My concern was that a specific round does something to the barrel, that might affect the first few rounds of a different brand. Maybe silly, but I know Benchrest shooters are pretty anal and will clean the barrel between testing different ammo. Might just be overkill for me. And their way to establish a perfect baseline.
Rob - I agree that it'd be great to use the same ammo throughout. I get to practice a decent amount though, and just can't afford "the good stuff" for it all. And it's funny, but using the good ammo actually seems to boost my confidence a bit! Or for whatever reason, I shoot it notably better with it. Hence, my original question.
So you think that switching from say, CCI Std Vel, to an RWS or Eley - that the first round or few of Eley might not be "on target" (disregarding sight adjustments)? Unfortunately when I arrive to my matches, there's no chance for practice round, and I hate to throw a few bad shots for no reason.
Rob - I agree that it'd be great to use the same ammo throughout. I get to practice a decent amount though, and just can't afford "the good stuff" for it all. And it's funny, but using the good ammo actually seems to boost my confidence a bit! Or for whatever reason, I shoot it notably better with it. Hence, my original question.
So you think that switching from say, CCI Std Vel, to an RWS or Eley - that the first round or few of Eley might not be "on target" (disregarding sight adjustments)? Unfortunately when I arrive to my matches, there's no chance for practice round, and I hate to throw a few bad shots for no reason.
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Steve Swartz
- Posts: 444
- Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 8:06 am
- Location: Auburn, AL
The only way to know is to rigorously test it yourself. Nothing anybody tells you second hand would apply here.
Why?
Because if it is something you are worried about, it will interfere with your concentrating on the important stuff until you satisfy your own mind.
Long version
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Even the benchrest shooters do it for mainly psychological reasons . . . yeah, I know, but when you press them on it very few of them have actually done rigorous clean/no clean experiments. But since everyone else does it, they have to do it too . . . neck sizing, orienting the case the same way in the chamber, different charge weights for meteorological conditions, testing runout and rejecting nonconforming rounds (all of htis done *during* the match *in between shots* . . .
Benchrest IS DIFFERENT.
Back to your question
The effects of using the different ammo all by itself makes a trivial difference- but at that, it's a bigger trivial difference than any "seasoning" or "acclimating" difference you are ever going to see.
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Shoot whatever ammo makes you FEEL HAPPY about your equipment.
Why?
Because if it is something you are worried about, it will interfere with your concentrating on the important stuff until you satisfy your own mind.
Long version
***********************************************************
Even the benchrest shooters do it for mainly psychological reasons . . . yeah, I know, but when you press them on it very few of them have actually done rigorous clean/no clean experiments. But since everyone else does it, they have to do it too . . . neck sizing, orienting the case the same way in the chamber, different charge weights for meteorological conditions, testing runout and rejecting nonconforming rounds (all of htis done *during* the match *in between shots* . . .
Benchrest IS DIFFERENT.
Back to your question
The effects of using the different ammo all by itself makes a trivial difference- but at that, it's a bigger trivial difference than any "seasoning" or "acclimating" difference you are ever going to see.
********************************************************
Shoot whatever ammo makes you FEEL HAPPY about your equipment.
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Albert B
Switching ammo
Recentky we tested the V1 of 3 different brands of ammo (Lapua Pistol King, Lapua Super Club and RWS Rifle Match.
Between the series the barrel was cleaned with 2 dry patches. This is wat happened:
Starting with a totally clean and dry barrel (no oil) the V1 of the first shot was 10m/s higher then the average with a constant fouling of the barrel and the V1 varied a lot until it levelled of to average after aprox. 12 shots.
After that the V1 started to raise by 1m/s after every serie of 10 to 15 shots (Pistol King).
After cleaining with the 2 patches it took 15 to 20 shots to let the barrel return to a constant fouling again. During this time the V1 was very inconsistant (higs and lows).
I shot a Walther GX-1 (KK-Match) and the V1 for the Pistol King averaged 305m/s; the Super Club 315m/s; the RWS Rifle Match 323m/s.
Albert B
(The Netherlands)
Between the series the barrel was cleaned with 2 dry patches. This is wat happened:
Starting with a totally clean and dry barrel (no oil) the V1 of the first shot was 10m/s higher then the average with a constant fouling of the barrel and the V1 varied a lot until it levelled of to average after aprox. 12 shots.
After that the V1 started to raise by 1m/s after every serie of 10 to 15 shots (Pistol King).
After cleaining with the 2 patches it took 15 to 20 shots to let the barrel return to a constant fouling again. During this time the V1 was very inconsistant (higs and lows).
I shot a Walther GX-1 (KK-Match) and the V1 for the Pistol King averaged 305m/s; the Super Club 315m/s; the RWS Rifle Match 323m/s.
Albert B
(The Netherlands)
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Steve Swartz
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Interesting (and not atypical) results; but I'm not sure I understand your description very well. Two minor points to contribute though:
1. I think the question was about switching between brands after the barrel had already settled in with one brand . . .
2. Also, velocity (your V1?) differences from a pistol at pistol distances do not have that great an effect on shot location (assuming as the poster mentioned that any sight corrections were known and made in advance).
I'm thinking the differences shot-shot within a given brand of ammo under the assumptions being made would be negligable?
1. I think the question was about switching between brands after the barrel had already settled in with one brand . . .
2. Also, velocity (your V1?) differences from a pistol at pistol distances do not have that great an effect on shot location (assuming as the poster mentioned that any sight corrections were known and made in advance).
I'm thinking the differences shot-shot within a given brand of ammo under the assumptions being made would be negligable?
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Mark Briggs
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- Location: The Frigid North - Ottawa, Canada
As a follow-up to Steve's questions...
I have done some ransom rest group testing with free pistols. While the setup was perhaps not perfect it was certainly very repeatable. I tested 26 brands of ammunition (if memory serves), including multiple products within the Eley, Lapua and RWS brands. My findings are as follows:
- group size was generally adversely affected by cleaning the barrel between 10-shot strings, irrespective of which ammo was used
- as a result of this finding I stopped cleaning the pistol between groups and fired 50 shots through the pistol before re-starting my group testing
- I employed a "control" lot of ammunition which I used to shoot groups at the beginning, middle and end of my shooting session.
- analysis of my "control" ammunition groups showed good consistancy across the entire shooting session, with no more deviation than would be found from one 10-shot group to the next using that same "control" ammunition
- the shocking discovery was that the first shot of a new brand of ammo always was significantly displaced from the subsequent shots (didn't matter whether it was switching from Eley Tenex to Target Pistol, or from Eley to RWS or Lapua or some other brand)
- I modified my testing process so that I would fire 1 "fouler" shot of the "new" ammo with no test target in place, then begin a 10-shot grouping string
- in general, group size was acceptable when I fired only 1 fouler shot, with no measureable improvement in group size after firing as many as 5 fouler shots before beginning a test string
- contrary to what some folks will say, a 10-shot group is a reasonable "guesstimate" of how ammunition will perform in your pistol. I've fired as many as 100 shots in a single group and have measured no significant change in the maximum shot dispersion as compared to the original 10-shot group
- if you do group testing and you find something that produces a good 10-shot group, THEN you should think about shooting 50 or 100 shots to check for longer-term consistancy
Now for the saddest conclusion of all my testing. Keep in mind that I tested a broad range of ammunition, including the "best" you can buy, and some of the cheapest you can buy (Lapua Midas, Eley Tenex, Remington Target, Winchester T-22 and even American Eagle - yuck!). My over-arching conclusion is that just about every ammunition will hold the 10-ring at 50m. That means the 9's (and worse) are all my fault!!!! ;-)
I have done some ransom rest group testing with free pistols. While the setup was perhaps not perfect it was certainly very repeatable. I tested 26 brands of ammunition (if memory serves), including multiple products within the Eley, Lapua and RWS brands. My findings are as follows:
- group size was generally adversely affected by cleaning the barrel between 10-shot strings, irrespective of which ammo was used
- as a result of this finding I stopped cleaning the pistol between groups and fired 50 shots through the pistol before re-starting my group testing
- I employed a "control" lot of ammunition which I used to shoot groups at the beginning, middle and end of my shooting session.
- analysis of my "control" ammunition groups showed good consistancy across the entire shooting session, with no more deviation than would be found from one 10-shot group to the next using that same "control" ammunition
- the shocking discovery was that the first shot of a new brand of ammo always was significantly displaced from the subsequent shots (didn't matter whether it was switching from Eley Tenex to Target Pistol, or from Eley to RWS or Lapua or some other brand)
- I modified my testing process so that I would fire 1 "fouler" shot of the "new" ammo with no test target in place, then begin a 10-shot grouping string
- in general, group size was acceptable when I fired only 1 fouler shot, with no measureable improvement in group size after firing as many as 5 fouler shots before beginning a test string
- contrary to what some folks will say, a 10-shot group is a reasonable "guesstimate" of how ammunition will perform in your pistol. I've fired as many as 100 shots in a single group and have measured no significant change in the maximum shot dispersion as compared to the original 10-shot group
- if you do group testing and you find something that produces a good 10-shot group, THEN you should think about shooting 50 or 100 shots to check for longer-term consistancy
Now for the saddest conclusion of all my testing. Keep in mind that I tested a broad range of ammunition, including the "best" you can buy, and some of the cheapest you can buy (Lapua Midas, Eley Tenex, Remington Target, Winchester T-22 and even American Eagle - yuck!). My over-arching conclusion is that just about every ammunition will hold the 10-ring at 50m. That means the 9's (and worse) are all my fault!!!! ;-)
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Mark Briggs
- Posts: 583
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 8:35 am
- Location: The Frigid North - Ottawa, Canada
Ooops, forgot to address Steve's 2nd question...
At 50m, using a Ransom rest, I was able, most of the time, to keep the shots within the air pistol targets I was using without making group-to-group adjustments. (These Edelmann targets offer very good paper stock which produces clean holes, making group size measurement very easy, hence the decision to shoot at the back of AP targets for the testing.)
There were a few instances where I had to make elevation adjustments to the Ransom rest in order to ensure the group would actually stay on the paper, and strangely, one instance where a significant windage displacement occurred, necessitating a walk down to the 50m line to move the target sideways!
At 50m, using a Ransom rest, I was able, most of the time, to keep the shots within the air pistol targets I was using without making group-to-group adjustments. (These Edelmann targets offer very good paper stock which produces clean holes, making group size measurement very easy, hence the decision to shoot at the back of AP targets for the testing.)
There were a few instances where I had to make elevation adjustments to the Ransom rest in order to ensure the group would actually stay on the paper, and strangely, one instance where a significant windage displacement occurred, necessitating a walk down to the 50m line to move the target sideways!
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Mark Briggs
- Posts: 583
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 8:35 am
- Location: The Frigid North - Ottawa, Canada
Hi Ed - if you'll note, I quoted the names of some of the brands used, to highlight both the expensive ones and the cheap ones. Tenex and Midas are definitely way up there in nosebleed territory - too expensive for me to shoot with any regularity.
For use in the Morini CM84 my testing revealed there was no benefit whatsoever to shooting Eley Tenex of modern manufacture. In fact, Tenex did not produce the best groups. Seems a shame to mention it, but Remington Target generally produced MUCH tighter groups than modern Tenex, save for the usual Remington quality problems, the odd shot that wouldn't go "bang", or that would pop an inch or so outside the core of the group. Like I said, even cheap ammo will generally produce very acceptable groups in a good free pistol! ;-)
Just as an FYI, my "gold standard" used as a control ammunition in my testing was indeed Eley Tenex, but very old stuff, still in the orange cardboard boxes. Now THAT Tenex works beautifully in my CM84, regularly producing groups under 20mm. And the funny thing about that ammo is that I horse-traded a case of it from a fellow who recognized its value, but who wasn't a target shooter and simply wanted a case of his favourite Winchester Power Point ammo in return. Man, what a deal that was. Once in a lifetime (or less frequently for some folks! LoL).
For use in the Morini CM84 my testing revealed there was no benefit whatsoever to shooting Eley Tenex of modern manufacture. In fact, Tenex did not produce the best groups. Seems a shame to mention it, but Remington Target generally produced MUCH tighter groups than modern Tenex, save for the usual Remington quality problems, the odd shot that wouldn't go "bang", or that would pop an inch or so outside the core of the group. Like I said, even cheap ammo will generally produce very acceptable groups in a good free pistol! ;-)
Just as an FYI, my "gold standard" used as a control ammunition in my testing was indeed Eley Tenex, but very old stuff, still in the orange cardboard boxes. Now THAT Tenex works beautifully in my CM84, regularly producing groups under 20mm. And the funny thing about that ammo is that I horse-traded a case of it from a fellow who recognized its value, but who wasn't a target shooter and simply wanted a case of his favourite Winchester Power Point ammo in return. Man, what a deal that was. Once in a lifetime (or less frequently for some folks! LoL).
Hi from Europe
It's my first posting on this list and I think the topic might be appropriate for me to delurk (though Steve and others may remind me that improving one's hold and trigger control is very likely much more important than any ammo batch testing - but the latter is more fun... ;-).
I am shooting 10 m air pistol, 25 m sport pistol (national), and recently 25 m standard pistol, and a couple of non-olympic disciplines. My scores so far are lowly, thus what we consider here "decent club level" (lowly by the standards of this list: 270 sport pistol, aspiring to 500 in standard pistol - still some way to go -, and 350 in air pistol but only when I am good).
I usually shoot an IZH-35 .22 lr with Morini grips (maybe soon an Agner) and an old FWB 65 air pistol; our club guns are a 1911 clone with a Kart .22 lr conversion set (very accurate, but unfriendly frugal "user interface") and a Morini AP (less forgiving than the stalwart old battle-horse FWB 65).
My civil profession (some of us have that, yes :-) is firearms law, and in order to waste time, I am also member of the presiding council and legal officer of one of our country's smaller shooting federations.
As to the ammo discussion, it would appear to me that the question of getting the barrel re-acclimatized and accustomed to new .22 ammunition, is more pressing with rifles than with pistols. Also, it will take a number of shots to ge the barrel normalized after it was cleaned (rumour has it that there are people who clean even .22 bores, though I have never met one). I usually fire a few fouling shots (2-4) when I switch ammo, just to be sure, but I have not tested it from a rest.
As to cheap ammo like American Eagle (or Remington Target etc.), the main problem IMO is not the size of the main group (I have fired very tight groups with American Eagle from a rested hand hold), but the more frequent flyers with these.
Best regards to all, and happy to be on board,
Alexander
I am shooting 10 m air pistol, 25 m sport pistol (national), and recently 25 m standard pistol, and a couple of non-olympic disciplines. My scores so far are lowly, thus what we consider here "decent club level" (lowly by the standards of this list: 270 sport pistol, aspiring to 500 in standard pistol - still some way to go -, and 350 in air pistol but only when I am good).
I usually shoot an IZH-35 .22 lr with Morini grips (maybe soon an Agner) and an old FWB 65 air pistol; our club guns are a 1911 clone with a Kart .22 lr conversion set (very accurate, but unfriendly frugal "user interface") and a Morini AP (less forgiving than the stalwart old battle-horse FWB 65).
My civil profession (some of us have that, yes :-) is firearms law, and in order to waste time, I am also member of the presiding council and legal officer of one of our country's smaller shooting federations.
As to the ammo discussion, it would appear to me that the question of getting the barrel re-acclimatized and accustomed to new .22 ammunition, is more pressing with rifles than with pistols. Also, it will take a number of shots to ge the barrel normalized after it was cleaned (rumour has it that there are people who clean even .22 bores, though I have never met one). I usually fire a few fouling shots (2-4) when I switch ammo, just to be sure, but I have not tested it from a rest.
As to cheap ammo like American Eagle (or Remington Target etc.), the main problem IMO is not the size of the main group (I have fired very tight groups with American Eagle from a rested hand hold), but the more frequent flyers with these.
Best regards to all, and happy to be on board,
Alexander
I have a Benelli MP90S, and the rifling is such that I will eventually get slight keyholing of my shots if I don't give the barrel a good scrubbing with a bronze brush occasionally. Nothing too dramatic, but definitely oval holes. The shots are typically close to call, but I suspect the accuracy isn't what it should be.
I was testing several brands of ammo several years ago, and found that switching between some brands resulted in keyholing for the first 3 or 4 shots. After that it was OK. I've read that rimfire benchrest rifle shooters have observed similar funny effects. The theory is that there may be incompatibilities of some sort between the different bullet lubes.
It may have been that my bore was leaded up to the point where it was marginal, or it may just be that the Benelli rifling is fussier than some. In any event, degradations in accuracy CAN occur when switching brands of ammo. I seem to recall that Winchester T22 behaved very poorly for several shots, but I don't recall what I had shot just before it.
I was testing several brands of ammo several years ago, and found that switching between some brands resulted in keyholing for the first 3 or 4 shots. After that it was OK. I've read that rimfire benchrest rifle shooters have observed similar funny effects. The theory is that there may be incompatibilities of some sort between the different bullet lubes.
It may have been that my bore was leaded up to the point where it was marginal, or it may just be that the Benelli rifling is fussier than some. In any event, degradations in accuracy CAN occur when switching brands of ammo. I seem to recall that Winchester T22 behaved very poorly for several shots, but I don't recall what I had shot just before it.
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deadeyedick
- Posts: 1198
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Apart from a slight change in POI due to the different FPS of a different ammo, it will make NO difference at all.
The .22 barrel requires little to no attention with regards to cleaning, as the self lubricating soft lead projectile leaves no residue to speak of . The breech area requires a clean from time to time to remove any excess crap that has built up, but the thought of using a bronze or copper brush on the barrel of a competition .22 pistol sends shivers down my spine.
If any of you have noticed, it is the "continual cleaners" who have the most accuracy problems, and the thought of a .22 projectile tumbling suggests some harsh treatment has been applied resulting in excessive damage or wear...not from a minimal wax buildup.
The .22 barrel requires little to no attention with regards to cleaning, as the self lubricating soft lead projectile leaves no residue to speak of . The breech area requires a clean from time to time to remove any excess crap that has built up, but the thought of using a bronze or copper brush on the barrel of a competition .22 pistol sends shivers down my spine.
If any of you have noticed, it is the "continual cleaners" who have the most accuracy problems, and the thought of a .22 projectile tumbling suggests some harsh treatment has been applied resulting in excessive damage or wear...not from a minimal wax buildup.
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jrmcdaniel
- Posts: 240
- Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:01 pm
- Location: Grantsville, MD
I am told by an ex-Army man that the US Army did an experiment on the M16 (AR-15) to see what care is really needed. A Master shooter was given a gun, he requalified as Master with it. 20,000 shots were then fired through the gun without cleaning (maintenance? I suppose was allowed). The gun was then given to the same person who proceded to shoot Master again.
After hearing about barrels wearing out after 5,000 shots and the need to clean a barrel after every n shots, this experiment was interesting. It would appear that cleaning wears out a barrel faster than shooting.
A .22LR is a lot easier on a barrel than a typical M16/AR-15 round.
Best,
Joe
After hearing about barrels wearing out after 5,000 shots and the need to clean a barrel after every n shots, this experiment was interesting. It would appear that cleaning wears out a barrel faster than shooting.
A .22LR is a lot easier on a barrel than a typical M16/AR-15 round.
Best,
Joe