What would the advantage of using a semi-auto rimfire in a smallbore prone match. Any, none, disadvantage?
I'd like to hear some thoughts on the subject.
Gerard T.
Semi-auto vs. bolt action .22
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963, David Levene, Spencer
The only advantage would be not having to move anything between shots, so your NPA or head position would almost certainly never change.
However, this is offset by the fact that you'd have to change magazines periodically, and that you'd be very hard pressed to find a semi auto capable of shooting on the level of most of the single shots. Not to mention the rules of most matches will specify single shot only.
However, this is offset by the fact that you'd have to change magazines periodically, and that you'd be very hard pressed to find a semi auto capable of shooting on the level of most of the single shots. Not to mention the rules of most matches will specify single shot only.
You could use a semi-auto or even a fully-auto in competition if you wanted to - but, under the safety rules, you'd have to load only one round at a time:u
And there's also the point that it's far more difficult to make a semi-auto that's as accurate as a single-shot, so even if you could get one as accurate as a normal match rifle, you'd be spending a lot more money to do so.7.2.5.1 ... Even if the rifle has a magazine, only one cartridge may be loaded. ...
-
MGT
It must not be a safety rule because there are many more matches where a semi-auto high-power rifle is used with 5 rounds in the chamber/magazine.
Also the CMP Rimfire sporter matches allow 5 rounds in the magazine AND the shooter has to go from a standing position to prone with a loaded rifle...albeit with a heavy trigger per those rules.
The rule is there, but isn't applicable as a safety rule. So it must be a performance issue. I suspect it's easier to stay in position with a semi- but the current thinking is that a semi- can't compete with a bolt. I'm not so sure about that. I've seen some semis- shoot some amazing scores, in a very rapid fashion.
I wonder if the rule is a throwback to something in the past when semi-auto rimfire rifles were un-reliable and shooters would spend more time fixing them than shooting thuring a match.
Also the CMP Rimfire sporter matches allow 5 rounds in the magazine AND the shooter has to go from a standing position to prone with a loaded rifle...albeit with a heavy trigger per those rules.
The rule is there, but isn't applicable as a safety rule. So it must be a performance issue. I suspect it's easier to stay in position with a semi- but the current thinking is that a semi- can't compete with a bolt. I'm not so sure about that. I've seen some semis- shoot some amazing scores, in a very rapid fashion.
I wonder if the rule is a throwback to something in the past when semi-auto rimfire rifles were un-reliable and shooters would spend more time fixing them than shooting thuring a match.
-
MGT
Well let's look at the ISSF and their shooting events:
A prone shooter with a rifle probably has the lowest chance of creating an accidental dangerous situation than any other ISSF shooting event. I've seen trapshooters faint during long doubles shootoffs. I saw a rapid fire (ISSF) shooter drop his loaded pistol. I saw an Olympian skeet shooter shoot the house more than once.
Not allowing semi-auto rifles may be a "safety" rule...but it's not really a safety issue.
As a range safety officer, I see more marginal gun handling during a rapid fire sport pistol event (5 rounds in the gun) than I ever saw during a 50-meter prone match (ISSF events). The range control personnel also have a very noticable "urgent" tone when conducting pistol events compared to when running a prone event.
There must be something else that brought about exclusion of the semi-auto rifle. Otherwise, with a safety slant, there would not be a rapid fire ISSF pistol event or Intl. trap or skeet. AND the trap and skeet shooters are walking around to their post with their guns. I helped sponsor a youngster heading for an ISSF International Trap competition who used a SEMI-AUTO Beretta shotgun.
Loading more than 1 round in a prone rimfire rifle is just not a safety issue. So what is the rule really about? I suspect it's an advantage to the shooter that helps keep the position intact.
A prone shooter with a rifle probably has the lowest chance of creating an accidental dangerous situation than any other ISSF shooting event. I've seen trapshooters faint during long doubles shootoffs. I saw a rapid fire (ISSF) shooter drop his loaded pistol. I saw an Olympian skeet shooter shoot the house more than once.
Not allowing semi-auto rifles may be a "safety" rule...but it's not really a safety issue.
As a range safety officer, I see more marginal gun handling during a rapid fire sport pistol event (5 rounds in the gun) than I ever saw during a 50-meter prone match (ISSF events). The range control personnel also have a very noticable "urgent" tone when conducting pistol events compared to when running a prone event.
There must be something else that brought about exclusion of the semi-auto rifle. Otherwise, with a safety slant, there would not be a rapid fire ISSF pistol event or Intl. trap or skeet. AND the trap and skeet shooters are walking around to their post with their guns. I helped sponsor a youngster heading for an ISSF International Trap competition who used a SEMI-AUTO Beretta shotgun.
Loading more than 1 round in a prone rimfire rifle is just not a safety issue. So what is the rule really about? I suspect it's an advantage to the shooter that helps keep the position intact.
Wow!.....that would really put a damper on 25M rapid fire pistol matches!! I don't believe Alexi Klimov, Ralf Schumann, etc. had their targets shooting back at them in world cup matches and if I'm not mistaken, they can shoot fairly well!! Granted, I'm referring to a pistol here but, a semi auto is a semi auto no mater if it be a rifle or handgun competition.pdeal wrote:
I tell my son that semi autos are for people who can't shoot or who's targets shoot back.
I'm all for safety first and foremost but I'll kindly have to disagree with your philosophy on this issue.
~Phil
Interesting topic, but let's be careful and stay on the topic.
I find that in a semi-auto rifle (this applies to Savages, Remingtons, and Rugers that I have fired) getting the first shot from the magazine and the remaining shots to have the same POI is difficult (well .... for me impossible). By that I mean, the shots fired from the first that is hand cycled and the remaining that are cycled by the firing action are different.
Shots 2-xx are OK, but shot #1 is always a bit off. On a good semi, this #1 shot is usually in the same location (in a decent rifle) and can be adjusted for. I have a Ruger 10/22 that I've worked on quite a bit, and shot #1 is always 1/2" high and 1.25" right ... at 50 yds (CMP Rimfire Sporter distances) shots #2-5 care all in the same hole if I take my time.
I've had shooters fire in sectionals (loading one shot at a time) that just get real frustrated if they don't know there that hand cycled chot is going to go ... sometimes their cycling technique can get them consistent, but many times that 1st shot will only hole a 6-7 ring somewhere.
My preference for consistent shot to shot placement (from #1 thru #xx) is a bolt action.
If anyone knows how to achieve consistent #1 to #2 placement (especially in a Ruger 10/22) please pipe up. (Note: spending $300 or so is not really an option) My best advise on the carbines is to first remove the barrel band and shoot w/o it. That alone will do a whole lot
I find that in a semi-auto rifle (this applies to Savages, Remingtons, and Rugers that I have fired) getting the first shot from the magazine and the remaining shots to have the same POI is difficult (well .... for me impossible). By that I mean, the shots fired from the first that is hand cycled and the remaining that are cycled by the firing action are different.
Shots 2-xx are OK, but shot #1 is always a bit off. On a good semi, this #1 shot is usually in the same location (in a decent rifle) and can be adjusted for. I have a Ruger 10/22 that I've worked on quite a bit, and shot #1 is always 1/2" high and 1.25" right ... at 50 yds (CMP Rimfire Sporter distances) shots #2-5 care all in the same hole if I take my time.
I've had shooters fire in sectionals (loading one shot at a time) that just get real frustrated if they don't know there that hand cycled chot is going to go ... sometimes their cycling technique can get them consistent, but many times that 1st shot will only hole a 6-7 ring somewhere.
My preference for consistent shot to shot placement (from #1 thru #xx) is a bolt action.
If anyone knows how to achieve consistent #1 to #2 placement (especially in a Ruger 10/22) please pipe up. (Note: spending $300 or so is not really an option) My best advise on the carbines is to first remove the barrel band and shoot w/o it. That alone will do a whole lot
-
froggie5215
1st shot flyer in semiauto
I'm told a 1/16" roll pin above the front of the firing pin to limit vertical travel of the firing pin stops those hand cycled flyers in 10/22s
-
Guest
One downside to a semi-auto would be the choice of stocks. Does anyone produce a proper adjustable prone stock for the 10-22 or other semi auto?
Another would be barrel length. Unless I'm mistaken semi-autos tend to have shorter barrels, no problem with a scope and good handling for hunting, but not good with aperture sights. You could fit an extension tube to bring the sight radius back to normal, but not everyone likes these.
The facility for very rapid shots might tempt beginners into poor habits, especially regarding breathing patterns.
Tim S
Another would be barrel length. Unless I'm mistaken semi-autos tend to have shorter barrels, no problem with a scope and good handling for hunting, but not good with aperture sights. You could fit an extension tube to bring the sight radius back to normal, but not everyone likes these.
The facility for very rapid shots might tempt beginners into poor habits, especially regarding breathing patterns.
Tim S