Bill, you seem to have changed from "I won't work with a coach I could out-shoot" to "I won't work with a coach I can't learn something from".
IMHO the latter is a reasonable and sensible attitude, the former is somewhat less so.
Advice Needed
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David , I challenge you to find any where in my postings where I ever claimed to be reasonable or even intelligent. I am just a shooter that was led down counter productive paths so often that my distrust of know it all coaches is almost inclusive of the whole breed. My break throughs came from other shooters that just happened to beat me in our last match. I took the information they gave me , incorporated what I thought I could use in my training plan, and moved on. I'm not trying to start an argument, Just stating a closely held personal opinion. Good Shooting Bill Horton
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Guest
Re: Advice Needed
Study this: http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Side ... u-pmtg.htm
All the information you need is contained within this document to become a great shooter. It amazes me how so many people will claim to have the secret elixer to success when the Army has already written and practices the bible!
All the information you need is contained within this document to become a great shooter. It amazes me how so many people will claim to have the secret elixer to success when the Army has already written and practices the bible!
Re: Advice Needed
[quote="Anonymous"]Study this: http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Side ... u-pmtg.htm
All the information you need is contained within this document to become a great shooter. It amazes me how so many people will claim to have the secret elixer to success when the Army has already written and practices the bible![/quote]
Yes, indeed “US Marksmanship Unit Training Manual” great source of information as other mentioned by Steve before “the Canadian Shooting Sports Federation, Ed Hall's notes, & Ten P files.
But about “so many people will claim to have the secret elixir to success”…. I have different view with particular “Guest” ….
I think each coach must have some “secrets” for his students to help them, inspire, motivate and encourage them… other vise he or she not a coach but just Certified Instructor or Instructor with certification.
I know lot of guys who achieved BS in coaching and never work as coaches …and I know one good man who didn’t have any coaching experience before, no previous skills or knowledge in pistol shooting but great wisdom and he lead his student to 1996 Gold Olympic Medal in Atlanta in Women’s AP.
All the information you need is contained within this document to become a great shooter. It amazes me how so many people will claim to have the secret elixer to success when the Army has already written and practices the bible![/quote]
Yes, indeed “US Marksmanship Unit Training Manual” great source of information as other mentioned by Steve before “the Canadian Shooting Sports Federation, Ed Hall's notes, & Ten P files.
But about “so many people will claim to have the secret elixir to success”…. I have different view with particular “Guest” ….
I think each coach must have some “secrets” for his students to help them, inspire, motivate and encourage them… other vise he or she not a coach but just Certified Instructor or Instructor with certification.
I know lot of guys who achieved BS in coaching and never work as coaches …and I know one good man who didn’t have any coaching experience before, no previous skills or knowledge in pistol shooting but great wisdom and he lead his student to 1996 Gold Olympic Medal in Atlanta in Women’s AP.
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Steve Swartz
- Posts: 444
- Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 8:06 am
- Location: Auburn, AL
"I think each coach must have some “secrets” for his students to help them, inspire, motivate and encourage them… other vise he or she not a coach but just Certified Instructor or Instructor with certification."
I believe that is where we fundamentally disagree.
On Target Talk, I think the philosophy/spirit is of "collaborative learning."
In my ever-so-humble-opinion the "pay me to share a secret" philosophy is incompatible with a forum such as this.
So Russ, we are now full circle from our first disagreement.
I believe that is where we fundamentally disagree.
On Target Talk, I think the philosophy/spirit is of "collaborative learning."
In my ever-so-humble-opinion the "pay me to share a secret" philosophy is incompatible with a forum such as this.
So Russ, we are now full circle from our first disagreement.
????
Is it OK to have own opinion and respect others?
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David Levene
- Posts: 5617
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:49 pm
- Location: Ruislip, UK
Re: Advice Needed
This is a perfect example of what I have been saying on this and other threads.Russ wrote:I know lot of guys who achieved BS in coaching and never work as coaches …and I know one good man who didn’t have any coaching experience before, no previous skills or knowledge in pistol shooting but great wisdom and he lead his student to 1996 Gold Olympic Medal in Atlanta in Women’s AP.
You do not need to have been a winning pistol shooter to be able to coach pistol shooters to win.
philosophy of "collaborative learning" and old Aes
[quote="Steve Swartz"]"I think each coach must have some “secrets” for his students to help them, inspire, motivate and encourage them… other vise he or she not a coach but just Certified Instructor or Instructor with certification."
I believe that is where we fundamentally disagree.
On Target Talk, I think the philosophy/spirit is of "collaborative learning."
In my ever-so-humble-opinion the "pay me to share a secret" philosophy is incompatible with a forum such as this.
So Russ, we are now full circle from our first disagreement.[/quote]
[b]Philosophy of "collaborative learning" and old Aesop's story:[/b]
"Probably everyone knows the ancient Greek fable, attributed to Aesop, about how a proactive fox outwits a reactive crow. It starts, harmlessly enough, with the crow sitting in a tree with some cheese in its mouth. Then along comes the fox, who wants to have the cheese. "
"Presumably Aesop’s fable had a purpose – a lesson that it is not safe to take another agent’s words and actions at face value, without trying to understand the agent’s underlying goals and intentions. Or, even more simply, that before you do anything you should think about its possible consequences."
http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~rak/papers/Chap2.html
I believe that is where we fundamentally disagree.
On Target Talk, I think the philosophy/spirit is of "collaborative learning."
In my ever-so-humble-opinion the "pay me to share a secret" philosophy is incompatible with a forum such as this.
So Russ, we are now full circle from our first disagreement.[/quote]
[b]Philosophy of "collaborative learning" and old Aesop's story:[/b]
"Probably everyone knows the ancient Greek fable, attributed to Aesop, about how a proactive fox outwits a reactive crow. It starts, harmlessly enough, with the crow sitting in a tree with some cheese in its mouth. Then along comes the fox, who wants to have the cheese. "
"Presumably Aesop’s fable had a purpose – a lesson that it is not safe to take another agent’s words and actions at face value, without trying to understand the agent’s underlying goals and intentions. Or, even more simply, that before you do anything you should think about its possible consequences."
http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~rak/papers/Chap2.html
Re: Advice Needed
I couldn't disagree more with that philosophy and those statements. Secrets are to my mind the tools of a person with something to hide and who isn't confident in his (or her) own abilities.Russ wrote:
<snip>
I think each coach must have some “secrets” for his students to help them, inspire, motivate and encourage them… other vise he or she not a coach but just Certified Instructor or Instructor with certification.
Coaching has nothing at all to do with sharing 'secrets' it's all about imparting knowledge and iteratively evaluating and improving shooters. Inspiration, motivation and encouragement come from a combination of the coaches ability (as a coach, not shooter), enthusiasm and the building of a good relationship with the shooter, and probably umpteen other factors that I can't think of right now.
IMHO, a professional coach is selling a 'product / service' and therefore the customer has certain expectations. A volunteer coach is not but is doing it for the love of the sport and that gives different expectations from the customer. Neither is inherently right or wrong but they are notably different.
Rob.
Today's world diversity.
World diversity.
In today’s world it is OK to have any kind of diversity: different religious is OK, to be a lesbians is OK, to be a gay is OK Same sex marriage is now OK too….. Only coaches in target shooting [b]must[/b] be “Pro Bono” ……can we start diversity here too, please :)
For public good! People must have rights to choose.
In today’s world it is OK to have any kind of diversity: different religious is OK, to be a lesbians is OK, to be a gay is OK Same sex marriage is now OK too….. Only coaches in target shooting [b]must[/b] be “Pro Bono” ……can we start diversity here too, please :)
For public good! People must have rights to choose.
this post has gotten off track somewhat, what was the original post?
steve, a smart thing to do would be listen to russ, (putting on flame suit).
schedule a class with him, whats the worst that could happen?
you have someone well advanced of yourself, in the same country, and available, yet you rather ridicule him. I dont get it.
steve, I think you are a huge help to up and coming shooters, but there are reasons why some are on different paths to you, at some point you took the wrong path, and cant see the forest for the trees.
the really frustrating part is, lots of us have already been down that path.
Largely because either we wouldnt listen, and if we did were lead down there with the best of intensions.
maybe it is not the wrong path, just part of the journey you have to take.
i always wonder if I could go back in time and give myself some instructions, would it do any good?
russ comments to coaching is very good. it is only the coach that can see into his student, and know what is required to advance. yet to everyone else, it might seem ridiculous. secret is not the best word to use in english.
intuition it might be assumed, but it is coaching
example is the original post, of all the advice given, what he needs might not be there.
without watching the student, which peice is the most effective? thats the job of the coach.
this information would be specific to the individual.
the effectiveness would be determined by the ability of the coach.
maybe you are right david, every elite coach I have met, was also elite in their own right, but what in is not so important. I have never ruled someone out for not being elite. if anything, such coaches are more interested in you, than bragging about their own success. It was more the realisation, that when you did come across someone helpfull, it turned out they were quite good themselves, that I formed the opinion.
steve, a smart thing to do would be listen to russ, (putting on flame suit).
schedule a class with him, whats the worst that could happen?
you have someone well advanced of yourself, in the same country, and available, yet you rather ridicule him. I dont get it.
steve, I think you are a huge help to up and coming shooters, but there are reasons why some are on different paths to you, at some point you took the wrong path, and cant see the forest for the trees.
the really frustrating part is, lots of us have already been down that path.
Largely because either we wouldnt listen, and if we did were lead down there with the best of intensions.
maybe it is not the wrong path, just part of the journey you have to take.
i always wonder if I could go back in time and give myself some instructions, would it do any good?
russ comments to coaching is very good. it is only the coach that can see into his student, and know what is required to advance. yet to everyone else, it might seem ridiculous. secret is not the best word to use in english.
intuition it might be assumed, but it is coaching
example is the original post, of all the advice given, what he needs might not be there.
without watching the student, which peice is the most effective? thats the job of the coach.
this information would be specific to the individual.
the effectiveness would be determined by the ability of the coach.
maybe you are right david, every elite coach I have met, was also elite in their own right, but what in is not so important. I have never ruled someone out for not being elite. if anything, such coaches are more interested in you, than bragging about their own success. It was more the realisation, that when you did come across someone helpfull, it turned out they were quite good themselves, that I formed the opinion.
what I meant....
Bryan, you are 100% right.... But one correction: "Secret" is not my word.... It's some "Guest's" word.
I took this word in: "" in a first place and you understand what I intended to say.
Thank you.
I took this word in: "" in a first place and you understand what I intended to say.
Thank you.
This is part of my yesterday's e-mail
This is part of my yesterday's e-mail to one of my students....
I posted it to support Bryan's post and my vision.
...."I based my recommendations (of which I was approx. 80% certain) on limited information, with the following limitations keeping me from presenting you with a more complete and accurate analysis:
1) The last time I had a chance to directly evaluate your performance was a long time ago.
2) I have a general understanding of how your individual decision making process works.
3) Inadequate amount of information in your explanation about your current problems. It is hard for me to make recommendations with absolute certainty because I have not seen you in a considerable amount of time, consequently being unable to monitor your current performance and see your actual targets, but I still trust that my advice should be of some value despite these factors."
I posted it to support Bryan's post and my vision.
...."I based my recommendations (of which I was approx. 80% certain) on limited information, with the following limitations keeping me from presenting you with a more complete and accurate analysis:
1) The last time I had a chance to directly evaluate your performance was a long time ago.
2) I have a general understanding of how your individual decision making process works.
3) Inadequate amount of information in your explanation about your current problems. It is hard for me to make recommendations with absolute certainty because I have not seen you in a considerable amount of time, consequently being unable to monitor your current performance and see your actual targets, but I still trust that my advice should be of some value despite these factors."
post addendum
I think that I need to better qualify many of my previous posts with the following message. Let me start by making the underlying assumption for why we are all here: To help an aspiring student of the Olympic style shooting sport reach a desired result in their athletic career.
What I often see happen in these question/answer discussions on TT is that students cannot properly diagnose the real issues that they are having and why they are really getting stuck where they are. The best they can do is give us a small glimpse of their problem, maybe a symptom of a larger underlying problem. Then, oftentimes, instead of asking more penetrating questions to get a better grasp of what the real performance issues that exist behind this particular person's inquiry, different forumers try to jump on the opportunity to stand out, be heard, and answer the one specific question asked DIRECTLY, rather than trying to understand the full picture this individual is complaining about.
This is why you always see me batting for the one-on-one coaching approach as an important key to progress in this Olympic discipline. While we can all agree that while TT is helpful for many people in many areas, you must also agree that going online and posting your questions on an internet discussion board will get you one result, asking THE SAME QUESTION of a personal coach during a private practice session, for example, will get you a different response to your inquiry (often the response you need to hear, rather than a direct answer to the issue you THINK you may be having). The differentiating factors being that the coach would be able to see you go through all the motions of shot performance, be more aware of your individual habits, patterns of behavior, and other individual tendencies.
The former scenario (online questions), can often lead to unhelpful, even counterproductive results, which is something I see happen often, as the person ANSWERING cannot grasp the entirety of the student's situation with such limited information and without further probing inquiries aimed in the correct direction. In the latter scenario (individual coach's attention), you are bound to get a more complete, more qualified, and ultimately a more beneficial answer to the question that you pose. THAT is ultimately the coach's job: to not purely run Q&A sessions during practice, but to allow the student to make unimpeded progress toward their goals regardless of what stage they are at in their shooting career and doing a better job of GUIDING the student along, rather than taking these questions at face value and presuming to have a specific panacea for every request regardless of the individual they are dealing with and all other aspects of their specific performance.
I hope my point is clear now.
What I often see happen in these question/answer discussions on TT is that students cannot properly diagnose the real issues that they are having and why they are really getting stuck where they are. The best they can do is give us a small glimpse of their problem, maybe a symptom of a larger underlying problem. Then, oftentimes, instead of asking more penetrating questions to get a better grasp of what the real performance issues that exist behind this particular person's inquiry, different forumers try to jump on the opportunity to stand out, be heard, and answer the one specific question asked DIRECTLY, rather than trying to understand the full picture this individual is complaining about.
This is why you always see me batting for the one-on-one coaching approach as an important key to progress in this Olympic discipline. While we can all agree that while TT is helpful for many people in many areas, you must also agree that going online and posting your questions on an internet discussion board will get you one result, asking THE SAME QUESTION of a personal coach during a private practice session, for example, will get you a different response to your inquiry (often the response you need to hear, rather than a direct answer to the issue you THINK you may be having). The differentiating factors being that the coach would be able to see you go through all the motions of shot performance, be more aware of your individual habits, patterns of behavior, and other individual tendencies.
The former scenario (online questions), can often lead to unhelpful, even counterproductive results, which is something I see happen often, as the person ANSWERING cannot grasp the entirety of the student's situation with such limited information and without further probing inquiries aimed in the correct direction. In the latter scenario (individual coach's attention), you are bound to get a more complete, more qualified, and ultimately a more beneficial answer to the question that you pose. THAT is ultimately the coach's job: to not purely run Q&A sessions during practice, but to allow the student to make unimpeded progress toward their goals regardless of what stage they are at in their shooting career and doing a better job of GUIDING the student along, rather than taking these questions at face value and presuming to have a specific panacea for every request regardless of the individual they are dealing with and all other aspects of their specific performance.
I hope my point is clear now.
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David Levene
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- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:49 pm
- Location: Ruislip, UK
Re: post addendum
Not only clear but one which, IMHO, is 100% correct.Russ wrote:I hope my point is clear now.
Re: post addendum
I'm with David on thatDavid Levene wrote:Not only clear but one which, IMHO, is 100% correct.Russ wrote:I hope my point is clear now.
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Steve Swartz
- Posts: 444
- Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 8:06 am
- Location: Auburn, AL
Russ:
Well thought out and well said. I wholeheartedly agree!
In my profession there is a raging battle over the value/appropriateness of "Distance Learning" vs. "Face to Face Learning."
So far, the best-run studies have shown that DL is very valuable and efficient for "knowledge based" skills" and not so good for "tactile skills."
[One of the best studies was of nursing students in the UK. Halfway through the study the heatlh ministry decided that teaching nurses how to insert an IV over the internet was a pretty silly idea!]
Shooting sports have elements of both- for much of the "knowldege based" stuff TT is a great and efficient learning tool. For *some* limited "tactile" stuff TT can be of assistance.
But unless I see you in person, observe you while you are shooting, maybe hook you up to a Rika/Scatt and/or videotape you while you perform diagnostic drills, my advice and opinion will only go so far.
I'm getting a wicked case of Deja Vu here . . . didn't we all have this exact same discussion and come to the exact same result last year right before nationals?
Well thought out and well said. I wholeheartedly agree!
In my profession there is a raging battle over the value/appropriateness of "Distance Learning" vs. "Face to Face Learning."
So far, the best-run studies have shown that DL is very valuable and efficient for "knowledge based" skills" and not so good for "tactile skills."
[One of the best studies was of nursing students in the UK. Halfway through the study the heatlh ministry decided that teaching nurses how to insert an IV over the internet was a pretty silly idea!]
Shooting sports have elements of both- for much of the "knowldege based" stuff TT is a great and efficient learning tool. For *some* limited "tactile" stuff TT can be of assistance.
But unless I see you in person, observe you while you are shooting, maybe hook you up to a Rika/Scatt and/or videotape you while you perform diagnostic drills, my advice and opinion will only go so far.
I'm getting a wicked case of Deja Vu here . . . didn't we all have this exact same discussion and come to the exact same result last year right before nationals?
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Steve Swartz
- Posts: 444
- Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 8:06 am
- Location: Auburn, AL
OBTW
All of the above of course assumes that the "Problem Diagnosis" approach is being used.
If, however, you are leaning by practicing the "Focus on Proper Behaviors" approach then the value of DL goes up relative to the value of F2F for this skillset.
I'm not quite convinced that "identify things you are doing wrong, so that we can discuss it and eliminate it" is the best way to learn shooting quickly and efficiently.
Perhaps that is another "fundamental assumption" that has been hidden under the repetitive conflict over coaching techniques.
The "Old School" approach is no longer recommended by some leading professional coaching organizations. The "Positive Enforcement of Appropriate Behaviors" approach seems to be gaining in popularity.
I believe that by continually stressing how to identify and execute the "Proper Behaviors" long-term progress can be gained (potentially at the expense of short-term results) in a more efficient way.
It seems to work for many popular team sports, particularly in a youth environment. Will/does this success translate into coaching adult shooters? I don't think anyone can say for sure at this point- the philosophical shift is too new.
Step 1 of the "New School" is to throw away the venerable "Wheel of Misfortune" (especially for "Independent Study" students!).
All of the above of course assumes that the "Problem Diagnosis" approach is being used.
If, however, you are leaning by practicing the "Focus on Proper Behaviors" approach then the value of DL goes up relative to the value of F2F for this skillset.
I'm not quite convinced that "identify things you are doing wrong, so that we can discuss it and eliminate it" is the best way to learn shooting quickly and efficiently.
Perhaps that is another "fundamental assumption" that has been hidden under the repetitive conflict over coaching techniques.
The "Old School" approach is no longer recommended by some leading professional coaching organizations. The "Positive Enforcement of Appropriate Behaviors" approach seems to be gaining in popularity.
I believe that by continually stressing how to identify and execute the "Proper Behaviors" long-term progress can be gained (potentially at the expense of short-term results) in a more efficient way.
It seems to work for many popular team sports, particularly in a youth environment. Will/does this success translate into coaching adult shooters? I don't think anyone can say for sure at this point- the philosophical shift is too new.
Step 1 of the "New School" is to throw away the venerable "Wheel of Misfortune" (especially for "Independent Study" students!).
In my conclusion...
In conclusion, I do want to make it clear that I am not the ultimate authority by far, and nor do I presume to always have the right final answer to every question that will come up in your shooting career.
In fact, I do not believe that anyone has reached this point yet. No one shoots 600s or high 590s in FP or AP consistently enough to claim that honor. Time and experience is what counts in this discipline, and my own individual experience as an athlete and a coach is what allows me to diagnose problems better than some other people involved in this activity. My advice then, to everyone, is to try and find other such individuals who work at a high level of performance, either in their own performance, or in coaching high-performing athletes, and try to incorporate them into your mastermind group in your individual quest for excellence. Spend time with them at and away from competition. If you are able to accurately communicate your sticking points in competitive performance, many of them may be very glad to help you make the jump to the next level of excellence with the right advice or corrections. I believe that much of this really comes down to associating with the right people who would be conducive to helping your work move along.
Progress on the most elite level of competitive performance, however, is not likely possible without an objective and experienced coach/guide/mentor working closely with the aspiring athlete.
As for myself, I have passed the Michigan real estate examination on May 22nd for my RL license, and will now be commiting much of my previously available time to learning the real estate business thoroughly, and be largely unavailable for most inquiries, on the board or otherwise, with the exception of past students and perhaps other highly motivated individuals. I hope these last few parting thoughts on the subject of Olympic style shooting may be of benefit to you.
Best to all.
Sincerely
Ruslan Dyatlov
In fact, I do not believe that anyone has reached this point yet. No one shoots 600s or high 590s in FP or AP consistently enough to claim that honor. Time and experience is what counts in this discipline, and my own individual experience as an athlete and a coach is what allows me to diagnose problems better than some other people involved in this activity. My advice then, to everyone, is to try and find other such individuals who work at a high level of performance, either in their own performance, or in coaching high-performing athletes, and try to incorporate them into your mastermind group in your individual quest for excellence. Spend time with them at and away from competition. If you are able to accurately communicate your sticking points in competitive performance, many of them may be very glad to help you make the jump to the next level of excellence with the right advice or corrections. I believe that much of this really comes down to associating with the right people who would be conducive to helping your work move along.
Progress on the most elite level of competitive performance, however, is not likely possible without an objective and experienced coach/guide/mentor working closely with the aspiring athlete.
As for myself, I have passed the Michigan real estate examination on May 22nd for my RL license, and will now be commiting much of my previously available time to learning the real estate business thoroughly, and be largely unavailable for most inquiries, on the board or otherwise, with the exception of past students and perhaps other highly motivated individuals. I hope these last few parting thoughts on the subject of Olympic style shooting may be of benefit to you.
Best to all.
Sincerely
Ruslan Dyatlov
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Steve Swartz
- Posts: 444
- Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 8:06 am
- Location: Auburn, AL
Russ:
- Again, very well-thought out and well written post. Excellent things to consider and think about.
- Good luck in your professional course of action; real estate is tough right now in many parts of the country. I hope Michigan is full of opportunity for you.
- I also hope that your efforts result in plenty of time for you to pursue your coaching activities. We desperately need more widely available, and better perhaps, coaching in the USA. As our development "system" is quite different from the Russian, European, and Chinese systems we need a whole lot of independent effort to make up for the lack of structural support.
- Again, very well-thought out and well written post. Excellent things to consider and think about.
- Good luck in your professional course of action; real estate is tough right now in many parts of the country. I hope Michigan is full of opportunity for you.
- I also hope that your efforts result in plenty of time for you to pursue your coaching activities. We desperately need more widely available, and better perhaps, coaching in the USA. As our development "system" is quite different from the Russian, European, and Chinese systems we need a whole lot of independent effort to make up for the lack of structural support.