Thinking about a new .22 for RF...any advice?
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Thinking about a new .22 for RF...any advice?
I'm considering splurging on a new .22 pistol, for BE (I shoot iron sights), SP, and RF. I'm considering an AW-93, Pardini, and the MG2. I'm not opposed to a Morini, but would have to get the thing approved for sale in the wretched wilderness of Maryland. Maybe even get a GSP Expert upper for my OSP frame. Any advice? Thanks.
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Mark Briggs
- Posts: 583
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 8:35 am
- Location: The Frigid North - Ottawa, Canada
Mike - I have a strong bias toward the MG-2. I own two of them and they work exceedingly well. I shoot them with no additional muzzle weights installed and have no problems with either precision or recovery times in RF. They do require one to be willing to do a little more than "shoot it and shelve it", but my two examples are pretty much maintenance free other than a quick cleaning with a Q-tip from time to time (every 1000 rounds or so it takes about 5 minutes to clean and re-lube). My pistols will cycle any ammo I put in them, even when I mix multiple brands/velocities in one magazine.
Last week I put my two MG-2's through a torture test... I handed them to two junior female shooters, and gave them a bunch of ammo I'd never tried in those pistols. The girls each shot to their heart's content with nary a misfire nor failure to feed. Meanwhile my "backup gun", my trusty S&W 41, would jam on the 2nd shot almost every time. Left me wondering why I let the girls shoot my MG-2's instead of the -41! (Later discovered this new ammo is too "dry" - just a wee dab of oil on the first cartridge in the mag fixed the jamming problem).
With that having been said, I'll comment on others that I have owned.
AW-93 - very nice pistol, high quality. Trigger is difficult to adjust to get zero creep on 2nd stage. My personal feeling is that it functions too slowly for RF. In fact, anything faster than the 10s series of the Standard Pistol match is starting to push it as the gun just does not recover quickly - 4s RF is nearly impossible with the "stock" AW-93. It's a real killer in precision though!
Pardini - SP1Electronic Very good in all respects, but it's very muzzle-heavy. I sold mine because I just can't shoot something that muzzle heavy. My best scores in the duelling stage of Sport Pistol were shot with this gun. It ate anything I fed it and never complained.
IZH-35 - reasonably good gun all around, inexpensive, but in some ways also "cheap". The quality of fit/finish leaves much to be desired, and it's frustrating to have a pistol where the heads strip off screws so easily. But otherwise a tank. Great in precision and can more than hold its own in RF.
Others I've played with but not owned:
Walther SSP - really don't like the trigger on this pistol. Fit and finish just doesn't seem to be up to the price tag. AW-93 looks like a higher-quality gun, for less money.
I hope this little treatise helps out. If you need more info concerning the MG-2 or the other pistols just give me a shout.
Last week I put my two MG-2's through a torture test... I handed them to two junior female shooters, and gave them a bunch of ammo I'd never tried in those pistols. The girls each shot to their heart's content with nary a misfire nor failure to feed. Meanwhile my "backup gun", my trusty S&W 41, would jam on the 2nd shot almost every time. Left me wondering why I let the girls shoot my MG-2's instead of the -41! (Later discovered this new ammo is too "dry" - just a wee dab of oil on the first cartridge in the mag fixed the jamming problem).
With that having been said, I'll comment on others that I have owned.
AW-93 - very nice pistol, high quality. Trigger is difficult to adjust to get zero creep on 2nd stage. My personal feeling is that it functions too slowly for RF. In fact, anything faster than the 10s series of the Standard Pistol match is starting to push it as the gun just does not recover quickly - 4s RF is nearly impossible with the "stock" AW-93. It's a real killer in precision though!
Pardini - SP1Electronic Very good in all respects, but it's very muzzle-heavy. I sold mine because I just can't shoot something that muzzle heavy. My best scores in the duelling stage of Sport Pistol were shot with this gun. It ate anything I fed it and never complained.
IZH-35 - reasonably good gun all around, inexpensive, but in some ways also "cheap". The quality of fit/finish leaves much to be desired, and it's frustrating to have a pistol where the heads strip off screws so easily. But otherwise a tank. Great in precision and can more than hold its own in RF.
Others I've played with but not owned:
Walther SSP - really don't like the trigger on this pistol. Fit and finish just doesn't seem to be up to the price tag. AW-93 looks like a higher-quality gun, for less money.
I hope this little treatise helps out. If you need more info concerning the MG-2 or the other pistols just give me a shout.
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Guest
MG 2 RF
I recently bought an MG 2 with the rapid fire kit. My previous standard pistols are the S&W 41 and the IZH 35. The MG 2 is similar in design to the IZH 35 more than any other gun.
The most important difference is the trigger. The MG 2 has a very soft and smooth mechanical trigger. The IZH 35 has a crisp trigger that when the shot breaks, there is a definate snap. I have both triggers adjusted for minimum creep and 1 kg weight.
The next difference is the grip. The MG 2 has a tubular magazine under the barrel which allows for a grip that adjusts the grip angle fore and aft and sideways, similar to the latest models of single shot airpistols. The IZH 35 has a fixed grip that is only adjustable by carving the grip.
As for muzzle jump, the MG 2 has a larger, heavier steel weight on the front which does reduce the muzzle movement, but does not completely eliminate muzzle jump. There MG 2 has slightly less muzzle jump than the IZH 35 and the IZH 35 has a whole lot less muzzle jump than the S&W 41.
I also have the RF kit, which has a lighter slide and a muzzle weight in steel or aluminum with spring loaded weights inside the weight. I have the aluminum version. The lighter slide will, obviously, cycle faster. The RF muzzle weight gives the MG 2 a completely different feel during recoil than the standard weight. I have limited experience with the RF muzzle, but my first impression is that the muzzle jump seems to be slightly reduced but delayed over a longer time. A very firm grip and locked wrist is needed to shoot consistantly. The RF weight in steel appears heavier, which if it is (I have no way of comparing) will further lessen muzzle jump. With the aluminum RF weight, I like the balance of the MG 2. It feels more neutral in my hand, neither muzzle heavy or muzzle light.
As for reliability, during the first 500 shots, I had 3 fail to eject resulting in trapped brass, 1 fail to extract and 1 misfire. If you have a misfire, first remove the magazine and let the bullet on the BIL (bullet insertion lever) slide out the magazine opening. Then retract the slide. I made the mistake of instinctivly retracting the slide and ended up with a jamed gun that required removal of the barrel to clear. Note: be sure to engage the safety before clearing any jam on a MG 2.
The next 1000 or so rounds (I lost count) were trouble free. No malfunctions what-so-ever. I shoot SK Pistol Match ammunition.
Some writers have commented on the sear being attached to the lower part of the frame and the hammer attached to the top part which is screwed to the lower part of the frame, suggesting that this design feature somehow gives a sloppy trigger. The design is actually a three part system, hammer, intermediate lever, and sear. When the top is firmly attached to the lower part of the frame, I cannot detect any trigger slop. I have removed the top several times and screwed it down tight and the trigger is as consistant as any other trigger I have used.
Finally, did my scores jump dramatically upward. Well, not exactly. I am shooting about the same as with my IZH 35 that I have had for 7 years. But with the MG 2, it is much easier to call the shots and the trigger is much smoother and more consistant.
The most important difference is the trigger. The MG 2 has a very soft and smooth mechanical trigger. The IZH 35 has a crisp trigger that when the shot breaks, there is a definate snap. I have both triggers adjusted for minimum creep and 1 kg weight.
The next difference is the grip. The MG 2 has a tubular magazine under the barrel which allows for a grip that adjusts the grip angle fore and aft and sideways, similar to the latest models of single shot airpistols. The IZH 35 has a fixed grip that is only adjustable by carving the grip.
As for muzzle jump, the MG 2 has a larger, heavier steel weight on the front which does reduce the muzzle movement, but does not completely eliminate muzzle jump. There MG 2 has slightly less muzzle jump than the IZH 35 and the IZH 35 has a whole lot less muzzle jump than the S&W 41.
I also have the RF kit, which has a lighter slide and a muzzle weight in steel or aluminum with spring loaded weights inside the weight. I have the aluminum version. The lighter slide will, obviously, cycle faster. The RF muzzle weight gives the MG 2 a completely different feel during recoil than the standard weight. I have limited experience with the RF muzzle, but my first impression is that the muzzle jump seems to be slightly reduced but delayed over a longer time. A very firm grip and locked wrist is needed to shoot consistantly. The RF weight in steel appears heavier, which if it is (I have no way of comparing) will further lessen muzzle jump. With the aluminum RF weight, I like the balance of the MG 2. It feels more neutral in my hand, neither muzzle heavy or muzzle light.
As for reliability, during the first 500 shots, I had 3 fail to eject resulting in trapped brass, 1 fail to extract and 1 misfire. If you have a misfire, first remove the magazine and let the bullet on the BIL (bullet insertion lever) slide out the magazine opening. Then retract the slide. I made the mistake of instinctivly retracting the slide and ended up with a jamed gun that required removal of the barrel to clear. Note: be sure to engage the safety before clearing any jam on a MG 2.
The next 1000 or so rounds (I lost count) were trouble free. No malfunctions what-so-ever. I shoot SK Pistol Match ammunition.
Some writers have commented on the sear being attached to the lower part of the frame and the hammer attached to the top part which is screwed to the lower part of the frame, suggesting that this design feature somehow gives a sloppy trigger. The design is actually a three part system, hammer, intermediate lever, and sear. When the top is firmly attached to the lower part of the frame, I cannot detect any trigger slop. I have removed the top several times and screwed it down tight and the trigger is as consistant as any other trigger I have used.
Finally, did my scores jump dramatically upward. Well, not exactly. I am shooting about the same as with my IZH 35 that I have had for 7 years. But with the MG 2, it is much easier to call the shots and the trigger is much smoother and more consistant.
I also recently looked for a 22lr standard and RF pistol to replace a GSP Expert.
I tried the Pardini as this is the most used one. I tried the old model and the latest one. Even if it has a very good trigger and sights, I found it very noise heavy, especially the new model and the RF even more. I didn't like the balance and didn't had real pleasure to shoot with it. The grip is not so good (but it can be bought without grip and then equipped with a Rink grip). It is very easy to clean (one screw to remove).
I tried the Walther SSP. It shoot very nicely, is stable (limited muzzle jump) and very well balanced, has good sights too (but not adjustable by hands as on the Pardini). Its trigger is not so good but also not really bad (at least the one I tested, I read different feedback on that, may be some are better than others) but much better than the one of the GSP Expert. It is a very complicated design, difficult to dismount for cleaning. I wonder if all that stuff is really needed and how it will last in time after thousands of rounds. It is also quite expensive, the most expensive if bought as the complete package with all weights.
I didn't liked the grip angle and trigger of the AW93. It is also an heavy pistol. I looked like an old design. I do not think it is usable in RF. Finally it is very expensive, even more than the SSP.
Then I tried the Morini CM22 and the latest CM22RF. Even if I didn't expect a lot of it in advance, at the end I liked it very much: very good trigger too, good sigths (but needs tool to adjust), stable, little muzzle jump (not more than the much more heavy/noise heavy Pardini), very lightweight (=> it is possible to add some weights and still have a lightweight pistol), good (for me) grip angle, easy to dismount to clean (one screw like the Pardini). It is also well placed in price (same as Pardini). I had a lot of pleasure to shoot with it.
I didn't tried the MG2 due to the mixed reports concerning reliability: some seems to have a reliable one, others experienced a lot of problems.
So, finally, I decided to go for the CM22RF. I will have it in about one month because I bought it without grip and will use a Rink grip (Rink has a new model special for the CM22RF) and it takes about 6 weeks to get a Rink grip these days.
I tried the Pardini as this is the most used one. I tried the old model and the latest one. Even if it has a very good trigger and sights, I found it very noise heavy, especially the new model and the RF even more. I didn't like the balance and didn't had real pleasure to shoot with it. The grip is not so good (but it can be bought without grip and then equipped with a Rink grip). It is very easy to clean (one screw to remove).
I tried the Walther SSP. It shoot very nicely, is stable (limited muzzle jump) and very well balanced, has good sights too (but not adjustable by hands as on the Pardini). Its trigger is not so good but also not really bad (at least the one I tested, I read different feedback on that, may be some are better than others) but much better than the one of the GSP Expert. It is a very complicated design, difficult to dismount for cleaning. I wonder if all that stuff is really needed and how it will last in time after thousands of rounds. It is also quite expensive, the most expensive if bought as the complete package with all weights.
I didn't liked the grip angle and trigger of the AW93. It is also an heavy pistol. I looked like an old design. I do not think it is usable in RF. Finally it is very expensive, even more than the SSP.
Then I tried the Morini CM22 and the latest CM22RF. Even if I didn't expect a lot of it in advance, at the end I liked it very much: very good trigger too, good sigths (but needs tool to adjust), stable, little muzzle jump (not more than the much more heavy/noise heavy Pardini), very lightweight (=> it is possible to add some weights and still have a lightweight pistol), good (for me) grip angle, easy to dismount to clean (one screw like the Pardini). It is also well placed in price (same as Pardini). I had a lot of pleasure to shoot with it.
I didn't tried the MG2 due to the mixed reports concerning reliability: some seems to have a reliable one, others experienced a lot of problems.
So, finally, I decided to go for the CM22RF. I will have it in about one month because I bought it without grip and will use a Rink grip (Rink has a new model special for the CM22RF) and it takes about 6 weeks to get a Rink grip these days.
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eric loward
Re: MG 2 RF
Strangely, two pro-MG2-posters simultaneously. Or is it only one?Anonymous wrote:I recently bought an MG 2
As for reliability, during the first 500 shots, I had 3 fail to eject resulting in trapped brass, 1 fail to extract and 1 misfire.
have removed the top several times and screwed it down tight and the trigger is as consistant as any other trigger I have used.
Experiences from the MG2 for most shooters is way different from the ovatorium described here by Mark B.
Most of us have learned the hard way to stay away from the MG2 (and well away from it at the firing line).
The MG2 meens trouble. Lots of it.
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Mark Briggs
- Posts: 583
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 8:35 am
- Location: The Frigid North - Ottawa, Canada
Eric - would you care to withdraw your negative insinuation concerning my postings and their credibility?
I do not own an MG-2 Rapid Fire version, nor have I ever claimed to.
I also have contact with several MG-2 shooters in our area and close contact with our local dealer. In fact, when there are technical problems to be resolved that dealer has referred customers directly to me for troubleshooting assistance. As you have claimed, there have been troubles with the MG-2 in the past, and I have worked closely with one gentleman who had more than enough troubles with his.
I can say with confidence the design is one which works, and factory support for those of us in North America seems to be very good. The gentlemen referred to above with the very troublesome MG-2 sent his pistol back to the factory where it was extensively reworked and brought up to the latest design standard, free of charge. He was dealt with in a courteous and professional manner.
If you would care to do some research on my past postings you'll see that I have been open and forthright in detailing the difficulties I've experienced with my MG-2's, as well as their positive performances. You'll also see the same treatment was given to the list of other pistols I've owned. I share this information so that others might benefit from lessons I've learned the hard way. To that end, I caution you to do a little research before making comments that impune the credibility of others.
I do not own an MG-2 Rapid Fire version, nor have I ever claimed to.
I also have contact with several MG-2 shooters in our area and close contact with our local dealer. In fact, when there are technical problems to be resolved that dealer has referred customers directly to me for troubleshooting assistance. As you have claimed, there have been troubles with the MG-2 in the past, and I have worked closely with one gentleman who had more than enough troubles with his.
I can say with confidence the design is one which works, and factory support for those of us in North America seems to be very good. The gentlemen referred to above with the very troublesome MG-2 sent his pistol back to the factory where it was extensively reworked and brought up to the latest design standard, free of charge. He was dealt with in a courteous and professional manner.
If you would care to do some research on my past postings you'll see that I have been open and forthright in detailing the difficulties I've experienced with my MG-2's, as well as their positive performances. You'll also see the same treatment was given to the list of other pistols I've owned. I share this information so that others might benefit from lessons I've learned the hard way. To that end, I caution you to do a little research before making comments that impune the credibility of others.
MG 2 Rapid Fire
Eric,
I am the guy with the Rapid Fire kit on my MG 2 and I do not live in Canada.
I replied to this post because the author, Mike M, is considering a new standard pistol and mentioned the MG 2 as a possible choice. The MG 2 is not common in the US and the Rapid Fire kit is even more rare. I tried to objectively describe my experience with the MG 2 as accurately as possible.
I bought the MG 2 mainly because the trigger is the softest 1 KG mechanical trigger I have ever felt. Reliability was a major concern.
I did a lot of study from many sources before I was satisified that any bugs in the MG 2 design have been solved. The serial number on my gun is in the 22XX range.
OK guys, lets hear from anyone who shoots a FWB 93 or Pardini.
There is an older thread on converting a Walther OSP to .22 lr. Has anyone who has done this have any comments?
I am the guy with the Rapid Fire kit on my MG 2 and I do not live in Canada.
I replied to this post because the author, Mike M, is considering a new standard pistol and mentioned the MG 2 as a possible choice. The MG 2 is not common in the US and the Rapid Fire kit is even more rare. I tried to objectively describe my experience with the MG 2 as accurately as possible.
I bought the MG 2 mainly because the trigger is the softest 1 KG mechanical trigger I have ever felt. Reliability was a major concern.
I did a lot of study from many sources before I was satisified that any bugs in the MG 2 design have been solved. The serial number on my gun is in the 22XX range.
OK guys, lets hear from anyone who shoots a FWB 93 or Pardini.
There is an older thread on converting a Walther OSP to .22 lr. Has anyone who has done this have any comments?
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eric loward
apologize
Done.Mark Briggs wrote:Eric - would you care to withdraw your negative insinuation concerning my postings and their credibility?
I got a bit provocated by finding the MG2 as the first .22 considered.
And I read your post to fast to catch the details..
But there are disappointed owners of MG2s around my parts.
So, again, I would not even consider buying another MG2 until it had proven reasonably reliable.
Which I, at present, the MG2 is still not.
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deadeyedick
- Posts: 1191
- Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:55 pm
- Location: Australia
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Steve Swartz
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MG2-owner
MG 2 getting broken in...
My "reputed" "worst case?" MG2 have, to my surprize, begun ta act wellmannered.RJP wrote:
I bought the MG 2 mainly because the trigger is the softest 1 KG mechanical trigger I have ever felt. Reliability was a major concern.
I did a lot of study from many sources before I was satisified that any bugs in the MG 2 design have been solved. The serial number on my gun is in the 22XX range.
250 rounds digested, mixed brands, without any kind of malfunction.
Let us hope this behavi´n will endure.