Toz rear sight - "U" shaped insert?

TomAmlie · Post by **TomAmlie** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 10:14 am

Just out of idle curiosity, I was wondering how many Toz-35 shooters have flipped over the rear sight insert to use the "U" shaped notch. Don Nygord speaks favorably of it in his notes, yet no other manufacturer (that I'm aware of) offers a similar option.

Is this something that has fallen out of favor?

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:21 pm

TomAmlie wrote:Just out of idle curiosity, I was wondering how many Toz-35 shooters have flipped over the rear sight insert to use the "U" shaped notch. Don Nygord speaks favorably of it in his notes, yet no other manufacturer (that I'm aware of) offers a similar option.

Is this something that has fallen out of favor?

The "U" shaped notch on free pistol was in common use in Russia but I do not know if shooters from eastern countries still use them now. I started shooting a Hammerli in the sixties with conventionnal sights but when I was able to obtain a Vostok IJ/1 and then a Toz I used "U" notch all the time. In fact I switched back to conventional sights only a few years ago when I began aiming with the sights level with the bottom of the target like many european shooters do now. "U"notches are very effective il bad lighting. Now I use a Hammerli FP 10 but I still use my very old Toz with that notch. Sorry for my english but I am french
Best regards

Cricman · Post by **Cricman** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 7:41 pm

I used one on my Hammerli 150 for a season, but when I changed my front sight width, I didn't feel like shelling out any more money for another U notch. I liked it, but didn't see any significant benefit at the level I was shooting at the time. In fact, it took me some time to stop consciously looking for the long:short gap difference and allow me to trust my infantile caveman brain look at the whole picture and make corrections.

cricman

Mellberg · Post by **Mellberg** » Wed Mar 05, 2008 5:49 am

The Hammerli 150 I shot with before I got my CM84E had a U-shaped notch. Didn't really matter very much. Top score with it was 557 and I don't think the notch had anything to do with it.

sportshooter · Post by **sportshooter** » Wed Mar 05, 2008 6:03 am

I tried it with my Toz, and it was ok, but I changed back to regular notch because I like to have my sights similar in air-, free-, standard- and centerfirepistol.

Chris · Post by **Chris** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 12:13 am

For the new person I would stay away from it. The bottom of the U does not allow for a very clear picture and can make it hard for some people to get very good definition of the gaps on the sides of your front site.

I have not read the Nygord article on the U site. I would be interested in hearing the theory behind the design and why they work for some people.

Ed Hall · Post by **Ed Hall** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 9:55 am

Chris wrote:I have not read the Nygord article on the U site...

Nygord's Notes are available at Nygord's Notes - Shooting Tips From Don. The article referencing the U type sight is at What about sights?

Chris also wrote:I would be interested in hearing the theory behind the design and why they work for some people.

This is covered in the article, but basically the shooter has an opportunity to compare the closing vertically of the area to the sides of the front sight as well as the standard horizontal closing.

Note: Although called a "U" type sight, mine is more of a semicircle with no straight vertical sides, like the one shown in Nygord's article. Perhaps "U" is just easier to communicate: "I have one of those bottom half of a semicircle sights. How about U?"

I use this sight on my Toz-35, but don't know if it has provided any extra points. I would comment that, with either type sight, the focus should be fixed at a point on the front sight and the areas around should be peripherally viewed. I see no reason to steer new shooters from this sight, unless it is felt that the shallowness causes a lack of clarity. The bottom of a square cut sight doesn't hold any special information, but aged, new shooters may benefit from a larger semicircle, as they (we) benefit from widening the square cut one.

Take Care,
Ed Hall
U.S. Air Force Competitive Shooting Teams
Bullseye (and International) Competition Things

Steve Swartz · Post by **Steve Swartz** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:51 am

Interestingly enough (well at least to me!) I began shooting a semicircular notch (see Ed, it's not that hard!) when I began competing in international muzzleloading pistol.

We shoot "historically accurate" pistols.

The front sight is a BEAD on top of a thin post . . . the rear sight is a V or a "U" [sic] notch.

Center the white bead against the black of the target, cup the bead in the rear sight notch, apply pressure to the trigger and wait . . . wait . . . wait . . . click . . . wait . . . wait . . . FWOOSH!

The sighting system is so "natural" and "intuitive" that I have toyed with the idea of mounting a similar design on my Free Pistol.

It might even be legal for competition!

(hmmm not sure about the brightly colored bead as a front sight though?)

Steve Swartz

shadow · Post by **shadow** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:42 pm

Hi Ed,

Could you expand on your statement:

"the focus should be fixed at a point on the front sight"

What do you mean by POINT? How can we (shooters) identify a POINT?

Susan

Ed Hall · Post by **Ed Hall** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 11:01 pm

shadow wrote:Hi Ed,

Could you expand on your statement:

"the focus should be fixed at a point on the front sight"

What do you mean by POINT? How can we (shooters) identify a POINT?

Susan

Hi Susan,

The eye works very smoothly if following something in motion, but becomes "jumpy" if moving from one focus point to another. If you are checking top edges even, right side good, left side good, etc., you are actually making little jumps around to each of those and affecting the "line of sight." You should, instead, "pick" a point of interest to stare at on your front sight and allow the area around that to be perceived by the rest of your nearby vision. Some shooters will mark, or scratch, their sight to help create a focus point. Others use the texture of the sight. Some use one of the corners of the front sight or even hold center on the blade. The key is to hold to a point instead of jumping around, no matter how small a jump.

Take Care,
Ed Hall
U.S. Air Force Competitive Shooting Teams
Bullseye (and International) Competition Things

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 11:34 pm

Ed Hall wrote:The eye works very smoothly if following something in motion, but becomes "jumpy" if moving from one focus point to another. If you are checking top edges even, right side good, left side good, etc., you are actually making little jumps around to each of those and affecting the "line of sight." You should, instead, "pick" a point of interest to stare at on your front sight and allow the area around that to be perceived by the rest of your nearby vision. Some shooters will mark, or scratch, their sight to help create a focus point. Others use the texture of the sight. Some use one of the corners of the front sight or even hold center on the blade. The key is to hold to a point instead of jumping around, no matter how small a jump.

Ed -

Thank you. A thousand times, thank you. NOW it makes sense.
When I first started shooting I focused on the front sight's placement relative to the bull. Everyone said repeatedly this was wrong, so I kept trying to focus on sight alignment, which resulted in downright bad results.
In focusing on sight alignment I was doing the jumping you just described - left gap/right gap/top/left gap/right gap/top/etc/etc/etc. I simply could not relax and let the shot go. When I was focusing on the front sight's placement relative to the bull, at least I had a fixed focal point. This bodes well for tomorrow.

I feel like a boob, so I think I'll remain anonymous.

TargetTalk

Toz rear sight - "U" shaped insert?

Have you ever used the "U" shaped rear sight on your Toz?

Toz rear sight - "U" shaped insert?

Re: Toz rear sight - "U" shaped insert?

Ed Hall