IZH-35M (IJ 35) ammo & accuracy

[schauckis]

Hi,

New to the forum but I found a lot about the IZH-35M so I decided to post about this.

I've had the IJ-35M since about 1990 and I shot it actively until 1994 when I left for my studies, and sporadically since. My best result was 3rd in the Finnish Championship in the 16-year old series shooting sport pistol which is a national event identical to the ISSF Ladies' sport pistol event.
Total shots fired maybe some 12000.

Now, after my studies and moving to the capital region and subsequently to the UK I haven't been too active but am returning home this spring and plan to pick up the hobby again.
Intended use: ISSF Standard Pistol; Rapid Fire Pistol; national small bore pistol (i.e. the former sport pistol, similar to Center Fire Pistol).

With the gun I've had this persistent problem of finding reliable ammo.
Often when extracting the case if left diagonally in between the slide and the barrel; the gun despite this feeding in a new round. It's always with the "mouth in", i.e. the open end of the case in the gun, never the rim.
As the slide is a couple of mms open the gun won't fire, of course.
The greasier the ammo the worse the problem. Best results I have achieved with Fiocchi ammo; and the worst with Lapua. Eley even feels bad when recoiling so I haven't dared test it extensively.
The gun's been to two gunsmiths in three different stages w/o remedy to the actual problem..
1st time it was to the master Lopponen who sold the gun and he apparently smoothened the chamber which was of little help. Lopponen verified this to be a common fault with these pistols.

Always also the cases will swell. When I say always I mean it: I have not fired any ammo whatsoever that didn't swell. The Lapua cases actually swell over the rim of the case so very badly indeed. The swelling is caused by the feeding ramp so the swelling is the same shape, going around about 1/3 of the case. According to Lopponen, the chamber is too tight (hence the work on the chamber) which causes the case to be extracted too slowly giving it time to swell.
The Fiocchi cases ripped a couple of times the last time ending in a small blast causing the extractor and some smaller ancillaries to fly out. (After that I moved to the UK and haven't fired a shot since.)

So question:
Have you had the same problem? Any remedies to suggest?
One suggestion I got was a new slide spring.

And to more positive notes, users' comments, please:
How accurate have you found the gun to be? Example results in Olympic (rapid fire) pistol; or ISSF Standard Pistol (3x20)?
Best ammo accuracy-wise? Have you tested the gun in a shooting bench? Size of groups?
I read in one of the threads that there was a factory test target supplied with the gun with groups as small as 15mm and the average 18mm (if my memory serves me correct).
Haven't bench tested mine but several times I've scored 50 in the Rapid Fire stage; and once (but just once...) 50 in the precision stage. I believe there to be enough accuracy. All these with Fiocchi ammo.
I read that the current Russian record has been achieved with the IJ-35M. Does anyone know the total result?

I'd be hesitant to spend 1500 euros+ on a new gun; but if the old cannot be fixed it goes.
If it goes then the new gun'll be either the Pardini SP or the Walther SSP. Haven't tried either, though. I know the Pardini to be front-heavy and the grip angle is ridiculous. The new Walther seems to have promise.
I'd consider the Hammerli but it, too, is front-heavy and has quite a sharp recoil. The upside would be that then I could get a .32, as well. Now I still use the old S&W revolver. Good for precision but no front creep on the trigger gives me a hard time in the rapid-fire. It is also heavy as lead, and top and front-heavy.

Other areas of concern are poor trigger pull (suggestions as per Pete Brunelli's site haven't helped, it's still poor and uneven) and the atrocious grip. That, of course, is an easier matter. The main probs are that the grip is too flat: no room for the under palm flesh, and no palm filling at all. And the grip material is bloody slippery.
I like the low weight, the balance (probably only the old Sako Tri-Ace beats it in this regard), and the quick shootability.

Regards,

- Larry

[Fred Mannis]

I have an IZH 35M 1995 production that I bought used a few years ago. I use it mainly for NRA Bullseye, which is very similar to ISSF Standard Pistol. I have fired over 5000 rounds through the gun and experienced only a few failures to feed (because I did not load the magazine properly). I use Wolfe Match Target and SK Match Pistol. This gun/ammo combination is accurate enough (for me) - I shoot about 90% in the slow fire (precision) stage and 97% in the Timed Fire (20 sec) series. I have added a 115 gm weight from DJ Precision http://user.mc.net/~drweber/izh/izh.html and this really reduces recoil. I also did not like the grips and replaced them Rinks which fit me very well.
I have read of a variety of problems with the IZH but never anything resembling what you describe - swollen cases. In my experience this is caused by problems with the chamber or extractor groove dimensions not the feeding ramp. The 22 LR cartridge should be full supported, so cases that swell to over rim diameter means that something is seriously wrong. Perhaps you saved some of these cases from 10 years ago and can post pictures?

[schauckis]

OK, thanks, Fred.
Yes, I certainly do have some cases but no pics.
I'll try to remember to take some pics and post them. It'll explain what it's about.

Apparently today there is exceedingly problems with the cases as almost all manufacturers use too thin materials. I've heard this from gunsmiths and rifle shooters, as well.

Interesting you should mention the SK ammo, Fred. My friend used it in his rifle when they were new on the market - then still from East Germany (DDR) and found them absolutely excellent, better even than Eley Tenex or Lapua Dominator. With the SK ammo he scored Team Bronze in the Youth European Championship competition in about 1993-1994 (prone .22 rifle).
A couple of years back the Swedish "Vapentidningen" run a test of 35 makes of .22LR ammo and the SK performed very well, indeed, despite being rather reasonably priced.

- Larry

[ColinC]

Larry
I have been using the IZH-35M for several years now and have not had one malfunction. I have fed it a diet of Eley blue and orange, Fiocchi Maxac, SK Match, RWS Target Rifle, Geco green, Federal Gold Medal and haven't had a problem.
Unless there is something seriously wrong with the chamber diameter or extractor I can't see why you would have cases hanging up. For cases to bulge it suggests that the cases are starting to eject on ignition and are not supported in the chamber for any length of time.
I am no expert but I would suspect a faulty spring which is meant to hold things in place until the projectile is heading out the barrel and then allow the spent case to eject.
On accuracy. I tested mine over 25m, using 3-4 different types of the above ammunition, and the groups were never any bigger than about 20mm. In other words it was far more accurate than I am ever likely to be! In match conditions Eley and SK have given me the best results.
Hopefully someone who likes tinkering with the insides of handguns can solve your problem.
Colin

[JKN]

Larry,
I also use a 35M for NRA Bullseye. I am in the middle of my third case of CCI Standard Velocity (About 12,000 rounds) and I can count the number of failures I have had on two fingers. That's right two failures in about 12K rounds and both of those were due to dirty chambers so I take full responsibility for them. I have another that I keep as a back up that probably has 500 rounds with zero issues as well. I have never checked accuracy but they will hold the X-ring so that's good enough for me.

For grips I have switched to Morini, I also use a DJ precision weight to help control recoil a little better. As far as the triggers go I achieved great improvements from taking the gun down far enough to learn exactly how everything worked and then ensuring everything was polished. clean and lubed. This yielded very good triggers in both guns. Are they Hammerli quality? No, but I still think they are very good plus I have under $1000 US total in a primary and a back-up gun. A 208S would run me over $2000 for one gun and magazines are $100 each. To have a primary, a backup and 5 magazines would probably cost almost $5000!!!

I hope you get it figured out.
Good luck,

John

[JamesH]

Sounds like an oversize chamber to me, but impossible to say without seeing it or a fired case.

[olli]

My IJ-35 works quite well with Geco Rifle, and even better with CCI Standard black bullet. With the latter, FTFs are practically non-existent. It does not like Federal Champion, Federal Target, or CCI Standard shiny bullet; with these, I get FTFs for, say, one for every 20 rounds. I bought a supply of CCI black bullets some two years ago, when they started to get rare here in Finland. The current lot of CCI, which has become available this year, is again the black bullet variant. So far I have tested only one box of it, seems to work OK.

[jer]

I have used several brands with my IJ-35. Normal velocity (330) Federal, Lapua OSP, old Soviet Junior Tarkka and some other. I havent got a single misfeed or other malfunction. Funny thing, Soviet Junior Tarkka had misfires with any other gun, only IJ-35 and MG-5 shot them perfectly.

[Alexander]

The swelling is caused by the feeding ramp so the swelling is the same shape, going around about 1/3 of the case.

Same here.

The Fiocchi cases ripped a couple of times the last time ending in a small blast causing the extractor and some smaller ancillaries to fly out.

Your extractor must have flown to the same secluded spot as mine, where both are hiding now. I am using the gun without since then, but this leads to frequent blocked empty cases (about 5-10 % of the shots fired), and to less frequent butb more annoying doubles.

I tried to find spare extractors in Germany with Frankonia Jagd and with Walther, but to no avail so far (telephone inquiries).

Alexander

[Shooting Kiwi]

In view of subsequent posts, and to avoid confusion, I have edited this to withdraw my original post - apologies all. I am older and wiser now.

[Alexander]

If the case is bulging, it must be partially extracted, whilst still under considerable pressure.

This assumption is wrong. You have misread the original statement, which described the condition very precisely.

Alexander

[schauckis]

OK,
Took the gun to the original seller, gunsmith Lopponen. His original diagnostics proved to be right... Why the HELL he then didn't get it fixed is beyond me.
You see, he explained this to be a very common problem with these guns (still during the Soviet era) and he went on saying that the chamber needs to be reamed and maybe polished; and if this does not help, as it sometimes doesn't, then the rear of the chamber needs to be machined just a tad to get the cartridges to go a bit deeper into the chamber.
When the gun returned from him, this is precisely what he had done!
I fired some 3000 rounds last summer, and the gun worked almost flawlessly: the only ammo giving problem was the Eley blue - cannot remember the model name of the ammo, but it was the light blue pack. This is a pity, as Eley is fine ammo: good accuracy, lowest recoil of all ammo.
There was no swelling of the cases, but one malfunction (fired 100 rounds of it) where upon extracting the case it was left vertically between the breech and slide, and the gun still fed a new round in the chamber. Just as it did when the swollen cases gave me problems.

I also got decent results with Norma ammo, but I went back to Lapua Pistol King despite the price - the accuracy was simply in a league of its own, and any and all bad shots were clearly attributable to the shooter...

I also got to try several other guns during the summer, as my frustration with the thing had made me decide to obtain a new gun. With today's prices, though, one does not just walze into the gun shop and say "one match-quality .22, please!"
I tried the new Walther; the Pardini; and the FWB besides a Russian-made IJ35M w/ Morini grips.
Of these, I daresay the Pardini was astonishingly low recoiling, and didn't feel as front-heavy as I feared. The atrocious grip angle bothered me a bit, but I have never fired such a fast and controlled series. Additionally, the owner of the gun knows f**k all about shooting and the trigger "adjustment" was the worst I've ever experienced - despite this the gun felt extremely good.
The next one was the new Walther whose problem was ladies' size grip so I barely was able to hold the gun. Still, it felt very good. It was light and more balanced than the Pardini. A very low center of gravity, indeed. I'd rate it above the Pardini but with the narrowest of margins.
The AW, again - if you have an IJ, it'll feel immediately familiar. The recoil is very low, indeed, and the development from the IJ is obvious. E.g. the trigger action is far above that of the IJ's. This said, when I tried the Morini grip on the IJ, I was simply flabbergasted! The very next day I drove to the gun store and bought a set of Morinis, and after the tiniest filing and filling the IJ felt like from another planet. The recoil is extremely mild; even less so than on the AW, I daresay. I saw an immediate jump in the results and decided against buying a new gun.
So, I'll be awaiting for the summer season again!!

PS. Sorry still no pics of swollen cases!

[Fred Mannis]

Larry, thanks for the update. I'm glad that you were able to get the problem repaired, and ended up with an even better pistol, to boot :-)
With 'only' 15000 rounds through the pistol (your count), I'm sure it has a lot of life in it still.

Regards
Fred