jhmartin wrote:OK .... here's another $0.03 of opinion ....
I think Jim's situation is the same as many youth programs in the USA. We fire a majority of Air Rifle (sporter and precision) on 10 bull (gallery type) targets. ...
In the case of a 60 shot INTL match, we usually hang two targets, side by side, in a Lujan or similar type pellet trap system.
At the end of each 20 shots the targets are removed and then the next set hung.
...
USA Shooting's rules really are meant for international style competitions, and are geared towards venues that have single bull carriers, roll systems, or electronics. They probably do need to specifically address the gallery target systems in use as well .... They do ask us to apply some common sense, and I think most of us that shoot youth programs realize that the CMP 3-P Council rules add that extra "touch" to these types of ranges, thus we tend to use those rules as a clarifier
Hi
I believe that taking the stance in the last paragraph, (higher cost venue), is costing shooting sports quite a bit. We can't go off and buy 16 sets of electronics for our county program, therefore, we won't host an international match. We have 16 boxes, and can change out with no problems, but if that's "frowned on"... Who loses out? USAS does in membership, a lack of Olympic shooters, and one less match opportunity for us to shoot in.
We MAY do an international match the low rent way next year, but we usually do two or three 3P / BB-Gun / AP matches already. Since we don't have a permanent range, matches take us a LOT of time to set up.
Is this being enforced as pertained to this discussion. Or are all four sighting bulls being allowed after two new targets cards have been hung?
Is it OK to interpet the same rule differently for rifle then for pistol as it pertains to this discussion of the official time stopping, competitors hanging new multi-bull targets, then official competition time starting again.
Do we inforce all of 7.6.5.2 or do you get to pick and choose which parts get used.
If targets are hung fast, then why not sight 7.6.5.1?
Ray
There are two things we are talking about .... Targets and Bulls
From my perspective a "TARGET", say an AR5-10 which I believe we are talking about, has 2 sighter Bulls and 10 record bulls.
Sighters are allowed on one TARGET .... i.e. the sighter bulls in the center
I too, have wondered why, in an INTL competition at the OTC, rifle shooters are given 4 targets to fire on for sighters (AR1 targets, 1 target/1bull) and those of us that hang 2 AR5-10's side by side can only use two of the sighters .... but them's the rules, so I teach my shooters to only fire sighters on target #1 ....
So, if the shooters have two AR5-10 targets hung (24 bulls in front of them), they can fire sighters on the two bulls on the #1 target ... the one they will fire their first record shot on. At least I'm pretty sure that's how most of us coaches & instructors teach their shooters.
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The big question:
Why do air rifle shooters BELIEVE they need extra sighters for the multi-bull targets?
Because the 10's so teeny, weeny??? :-)
Either that or they are ................. "special"
Apparently NRA has addressed this topic and added the clarification to their International Rifle Rules.
Rule 9.2b "If a target change requires the shooter to move away from the firing point or get out of position the shooter has the right to unlimited additional sighting shots."
Usually NRA International rules carry over from ISSF. But it seems that they have hade to deal with this before.
Jim Holtman
I think everyone will agree on the desire for sighters with cartridge rifle events.
I didn't realize how attached air rifle shooters where to their sighters withing a 60 shot event.
I appreciated Pat McCoy's response. He offers a lot of good advice.
I asked the question: Why do air rifle shooters BELIEVE they need extra sighters for the multi-bull targets?
WarWagon's answer discribes what may explain why a shooter believes they need more sighters. There are many coaching phylosophies. This discribes one. My understanding, use and coaching of sighters and NPA is different.
I must teach the use of sighters more on the line of Pat McCoy. Since the record bulls on the AR 5/10 are huge major adjustment from the sighters, I don't understand how these sighters have anything to do with finding a true NPA for each separte record bull. I believe an athelete's time and energy is betters spent on building the position from the ground up for each record bull. Dry firing is an invaluable technique that be should used through out the competition.
Does the use of sighters during the 60 shot string on the AR 5/10 target prepare him for competition on single bull targets?
The preceedings are just ramblings from a nobody.
My friends can have a "sigh of relief." I have received the following segment from USA Shooting via email:
[Although not written in the rule book very clearly, I spoke with Lones Wigger who informed me if a shooter is forced to break his/her position during a match (ie- changing targets) sighters are permitted. I may have suggested for 10m that was not the case, but I have now been officially told that in these circumstances new sighters are allowed. I will also make a revision for the 2008 rule book. ]
Before I explain, I want to reiterate that I believe MOST air rifle programs in the US fire on the 10-bull targets, and because of that, when we do have to force the break in position to change the targets, I think it is a good idea to teach the shooters to fire some sighters as they get back into position for the remaining stages ... why? Because the rules allow it, and I think it puts the shooter who does not take sighters at a slight disadvantage over one that will do what the rules allow. (if only mentally)
Now ... in a match with electronics or target carriers. From the experience that I've seen, this can be a challenge when you are trying to get a shooter to take some breaks during a 40 shot (W) or 60 shot (M) match. Sometimes they will feel uncomfortable taking a break during the match because they do not have sighters to fall back on when they get up to resume the string.
I think that this is a coaching challenge in forcing us to teach the shooters how to setup outer and inner positions, so they feel comfortable getting back on the target. Then we can use the breaks on 10 bull targets to "confirm" the position rebuild .... not as a "crutch".
Related to this:
One exercise that I use with my (if you will) intermediate & above shooters, is on a 10 bull target fire a FINAL like exercise where shooters get a chance to build their position on each & every bull (guns are grounded between shots) .... i.e. a "LOAD" followed by about a 30 second time to adjust NPA and get balanced. The next commands are "Eyes Closed" .... then "Relax", and finally "Fire" ... if you go thru a whole target like this (WITHOUT SCOPES), it will become pretty apparent if there are any setup issues. Sometimes just fire on the #1 sighter and see if there is a big hole being torn in the same place.
Most of my upper level shooters can fire within 5-10 points of their average in a 3x10 "eyes closed" practice.
Once they have confidence in being able to rebuild the position, then as I said .... sighters allowed between strings become more of a confirmation than the crutch, and they will be confident that they can take some rest and rebuild whenever they go to fire on single target systems
One point not made about being able to go back to sighters after a mandated break in position, is that there may also be a change to the rifles themselves. Are they being placed on a stone cold floor for 15 minutes as targets are being fumbled with? Does that create a change in impact? (It does with my Steyr). Are the heaters being run full blast between stages? Does that create a change in environmental conditions - seeing the targets, warming the rifles, swirling the air?
Now, why pistol shooters are not afforded the same courtesy, I don't know! Maybe it's because nobody has printed a sighter bull on the 4-bull card?!?
And by the way, I hear from the real old-timers that our NRA 50 foot 10-bull smallbore rifle card didn't originally have any sighter bulls either. Shooters used to clip a seperate sighter bullseye alongside the record card. Our club legend has it that someone at the Wheaton Rifle Club designed a card with 10 record bulls and an incorporated sighter bull. WRC used to hold an NRA license to print it.
Coach Paula, Wheaton Rifle Club.
(Now how the heck do I get to Chebanse??)
jhmartin wrote:
Related to this:
One exercise that I use with my (if you will) intermediate & above shooters, is on a 10 bull target fire a FINAL like exercise where shooters get a chance to build their position on each & every bull (guns are grounded between shots) .... i.e. a "LOAD" followed by about a 30 second time to adjust NPA and get balanced. The next commands are "Eyes Closed" .... then "Relax", and finally "Fire" ... if you go thru a whole target like this (WITHOUT SCOPES), it will become pretty apparent if there are any setup issues. Sometimes just fire on the #1 sighter and see if there is a big hole being torn in the same place.
Most of my upper level shooters can fire within 5-10 points of their average in a 3x10 "eyes closed" practice.
Hey, thanks for posting this.
The next time we shoot a finals, we're going to do this.
I might even get really crazy and try at least one guts match using this method......a guts match to test NPA, hmmmm....
Just to follow up after all this discussion - I was at Ray's match for the 3rd & 4th relays, and think he did a fine job of keeping everything straight. There was, indeed, a chance to refer to the rulebook, & other coaches, on how to handle an incident, but I think it was resolved in a sensible manner. I was thrilled to see so many shooters (98% juniors) having a good time! (and the chili was excellent :^)
Coach Paula, Wheaton Rifle Club
This is sort of off the topic of INTL Air Rifle, but since FINALS came up ....
I'd encourage all that are running position matches (3x10 or 3x20) to first of all sanction the match, but then take a close look at the "blue book" rule 10.1.6
This rule essentially allows you to have one more "position" ... the Final ... for all shooters. Yes, it adds about 25 minutes to each relay time, but it gives all the shooters a chance to fire a Final in match conditions.
You can either use spotters to announce the score, or even the shooter to announce their own score. We have been finding it very useful to do this in some of our "smaller" (less important??) matches to get everyone the experience in firing a final before the "big" matches .... Cups, JO's, State Championships, etc.
We even fired our Fall Cup match using this rule. (89 sporters and 29 precision) Our relay cycle was every 3 hours
If you have a state like NM, where we can easily get over 120 sporter shooters and 70-80 precision shooters, traveling, even to a central location in the state, can be a 3+ hour trip. Having a team stay overnight, just in case a shooter makes a final can be very expensive. This rule allows you to have everyone shoot the final, and then only add that in for the top 8.
We've had great shooter and coach response using this rule.
Let me first say that as a sport I think pistol shooting is one of the toughest and I have the utmost respect for pistol shooters. That said, I do not understand your logic in this situation. Despite the fact that USA Shooting Competitions has already clarified the rule let me add my own perspective as an air rifle shooter.
When I take my initial sighters and fine tune my position, I have made small adjustments to dozens of factors in order to produce a consistent 10. When I am forced to break my position in order to change my targets I have to be able to make those same dozens of adjustments again in order to get back my 10 ring position and rhythm. You can't simply return to the exact placememt of your feet, hands, cheecj-pressure, trigger finger position, eye-relief, shoulder placement of the rifle, support arm position, spine curvature, etc. without being able to adjust. If just one of those few factors is off my a single mm, that is enough to put you in the 9 ring or worse. There are simply too many factors to consider which is why the rule is the way it is.
Air rifle shooting and air pistol shooting while simliar in the fact that they both use air to propel the pellet are about as different as you can get in shooting. I hope my $0.02 helps. Good shooting!