I ussually cast my own 200gr. SWC but have from time to time bought some and ussually end up disappointed with what I buy. What suppliers do you guys buy them from if you don't cast your own (lead 185's or 200's) ?
Thank you
Kirmdog
Who's lead bullets are you using
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, Isabel1130
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Ernie Rodriguez
- Posts: 344
- Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 1:50 pm
- Location: Tennessee
Cast Bullets
In 45 ACP/200g-Lasercast,Penn or Zero's are pretty good for 50/25yds. If I want exceptionally accurate lead bullets-I swage them myself-controlling the shape and weight with the dies.
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Ernie Rodriguez
- Posts: 344
- Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 1:50 pm
- Location: Tennessee
Laser Cast-200
Checked my LC 200-they were .452/198g
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Steve Swartz
Most of you seem to be using cast bullets.
Are we familiar with the "swaged vs. cast" tradeoffs?
At one point I was going to buy a press (Corbin) and swage my own; tried it but was never able to duplicate the precision/reliability of the commercially swaged Star bullets.
The Star 185 swaged HPWC were incredibly consistent (max weight deviations ~0.1 gr per hundred) and shot like laser beams.
Are they still available? On the USAF team we used to buy them by the 10,000 lot and they were in-freakin-credible. I'm pretty sure the Guard/Researve teams used the Star heads as well- maybe even the USMC? That was back in 1998-2003 though . . .
The Nosler JHPs were the rule for the long line; but the Star swaged lead worked fine there as well.
Steve Swartz
Are we familiar with the "swaged vs. cast" tradeoffs?
At one point I was going to buy a press (Corbin) and swage my own; tried it but was never able to duplicate the precision/reliability of the commercially swaged Star bullets.
The Star 185 swaged HPWC were incredibly consistent (max weight deviations ~0.1 gr per hundred) and shot like laser beams.
Are they still available? On the USAF team we used to buy them by the 10,000 lot and they were in-freakin-credible. I'm pretty sure the Guard/Researve teams used the Star heads as well- maybe even the USMC? That was back in 1998-2003 though . . .
The Nosler JHPs were the rule for the long line; but the Star swaged lead worked fine there as well.
Steve Swartz
The leauge I'm in requires the use of lead bullets only. I have some loads for jacketed bullets but they are a NO GO as far as the rules. I would be interested in trying swaged but the only ones I can fine so far are Hornady and Speer, I might give them a try though.
Erine;
I must have a box that got mismarked or sized wrong. I tried sending an e-mail to Oregon Trail and as of yet have not got a responce. Monday morning I will try calling their toll free number and see what they have to say. I'm sure I cannot be the only one that got the wrong size. I checked with 2 differant micrometers and 1 calipier and got the same readings on all 3 with it being .454. They look good but just the wrong size. If my bore was .452 I might give them a try but for now they're reserved for my .45 LC.
Erine;
I must have a box that got mismarked or sized wrong. I tried sending an e-mail to Oregon Trail and as of yet have not got a responce. Monday morning I will try calling their toll free number and see what they have to say. I'm sure I cannot be the only one that got the wrong size. I checked with 2 differant micrometers and 1 calipier and got the same readings on all 3 with it being .454. They look good but just the wrong size. If my bore was .452 I might give them a try but for now they're reserved for my .45 LC.
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Ernie Rodriguez
- Posts: 344
- Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 1:50 pm
- Location: Tennessee
Kirmdog-Steve
Kirmdog-I have about 3.5K+ of the Laser Cast and using a digital calipers and a micrometer,checked a few from every box and they were all close to 198g and .452 in diameter. Don't understand how yours could be so different?? STEVE-As you know Stars are no longer made.There are some swaged look-a-likes but the one's I tested(185 LSWC HP) aren't that accurate at 50 yds-I tested them. Thats when I decided to swage my own. I have 2 swaging setups.One is a Redding Big Boss with C-H dies.From a lead core I produce a 200g LSWC bullet,.452 +/- .2gr.The shape is somewhat like a H&G #68 design and is quite accurate at 50 yds. My 2nd press is a Walnut Hill,by Richard Corbin. On that swaging press,I produce a bullet which was IDENTICAL to the Star bullets. The core I use is the bullet that came from the Big Boss press,which is already very close in weight variation.I made certain modification to the Star design.One-I felt that a slightly heavier bullet is inherently more accurate than a lighter weight bullet.Secondly-I felt that a flat base reduces leading possibilities and obturates quicker.Thirdly by knurling the bullet I can get slightly more liquid Alox on bullet-further reducing leading possibilities. So what I have is a 190g LSWC HP that, from the shoulder forward, is identical to the old Stars,more bearing surface and a better method of lubricating with very tight weight tolerances.(+/- .1g) This bullet will outshoot most hard cast bullets and some swaged bullets. In fact, the only bullet that will group slightly better than my swaged bullet,in my 2 target 45,s is the Remington 185g JSWC target bullet. These bullets,I make,I use for matches at 50 yds as they cannot be produced real fast and in huge quantities-but it is fun and my hobby.
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Steve Swartz
Ernie:
Great info- and no, I didn't know that Star was no longer producing those bullets (did they totally go out of business?).
Fantqastic job on your professional manufacturing process! You went into a lot more depth with the swaging than I did- I had a Corbin-designed press and molds but didn't get the results you are. Sounds like you are replicating (and have improved) the consistency of the Stars.
The key may be your two-step process which will certainly improve consistency. The knurling/lube step may be more functional (reduced leading) than necessary for accuracy; but with this sort of thing they could be related more than we suspect.
My assumption always was that the Star bullets were superior for two reasons: the profile (weight distribution and spin up) and the incredibly uniform weight. Looks like yolu are capturing both of those characteristics spot-on with your process!
Great info- and no, I didn't know that Star was no longer producing those bullets (did they totally go out of business?).
Fantqastic job on your professional manufacturing process! You went into a lot more depth with the swaging than I did- I had a Corbin-designed press and molds but didn't get the results you are. Sounds like you are replicating (and have improved) the consistency of the Stars.
The key may be your two-step process which will certainly improve consistency. The knurling/lube step may be more functional (reduced leading) than necessary for accuracy; but with this sort of thing they could be related more than we suspect.
My assumption always was that the Star bullets were superior for two reasons: the profile (weight distribution and spin up) and the incredibly uniform weight. Looks like yolu are capturing both of those characteristics spot-on with your process!
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dblinden
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Ernie Rodriguez
- Posts: 344
- Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 1:50 pm
- Location: Tennessee
Precision Delta
Tried Precision Delta- couldn't get good accuracy at 50 yds from my RRA and Long slide 45's target pistol.I think NSK handles a 45 185g LSWC HP-it might be the P-D bullets but I am not sure.
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Guest
I saw someone say that they were using Penn bullets. I too had tried his bullets, and they were nice. BUT!!!! I had one terrible time getting anything from him but a run around! Seems as though everytime I called him, " he was just running my batch at that point". I got that line on MULTIPLE occassions. Then I found out that the guy charged my credit card in full 3 months before and still no bullets. Heads up if you deal with that CLOWN! I really don't mind paying up front if I get what I paid for in a resonable period of time, and it's good product, but being lied to on multiple occassions did not sit well with me. Just my experience maybe you have had different.
Has anybody tried Hornady or Speer swaged bullets? I know they are pricey but they are avalible.
Still no word fron Oregon Trail as to the wrong size being marked on the box.
Ernie;
I don't know why mine are so differant either other that they ran a batch through the wrong sizing die? I don't know if they make a heavier weight for the .45 LC but they are the right size for the older guns in that caliber. They look good and I thought that the harder bullets would be good for the shallow rifling in Colts but until I hear back from OT I'm just going to let them sit in the box they came in.
Kirmdog
Still no word fron Oregon Trail as to the wrong size being marked on the box.
Ernie;
I don't know why mine are so differant either other that they ran a batch through the wrong sizing die? I don't know if they make a heavier weight for the .45 LC but they are the right size for the older guns in that caliber. They look good and I thought that the harder bullets would be good for the shallow rifling in Colts but until I hear back from OT I'm just going to let them sit in the box they came in.
Kirmdog
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Guest
More Info on Swaging!
Ernie and Steve: For years I've considered swaging myself, but the Corbin site is so confusing I can't make heads or tails of it and always give up!
Can you provide details on what presses - dies - knurling tools - etc. you use to make the star copies?
Steve, do you want to sell your set-up?
Can you provide details on what presses - dies - knurling tools - etc. you use to make the star copies?
Steve, do you want to sell your set-up?
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Steve Swartz
Guest:
Pretty much gave up Bullseye back in 2003 or thereabouts- kept my guns and Dillon presses but got rid of most everything else, sorry.
Sounds like Ernie has it figured out- I never could get decent results (only dabbled; started when Star no longer allowed over the counter sales but still had a significant stash left to carry me through) but I do remember 1) the quality of the lead "cores" was key, as well as 2) stroke distance/pressure seemed to be hard for me to keep consistent.
Good Luck!
Pretty much gave up Bullseye back in 2003 or thereabouts- kept my guns and Dillon presses but got rid of most everything else, sorry.
Sounds like Ernie has it figured out- I never could get decent results (only dabbled; started when Star no longer allowed over the counter sales but still had a significant stash left to carry me through) but I do remember 1) the quality of the lead "cores" was key, as well as 2) stroke distance/pressure seemed to be hard for me to keep consistent.
Good Luck!
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Ernie Rodriguez
- Posts: 344
- Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 1:50 pm
- Location: Tennessee
RCE Swaging Press
I deal with Richard Corbin-I have his Walnut Hill Swaging Press-The quality is as good as my Star press or better. I am using somewhat soft lead only.You need an internal die-of your chioce.This forms the base of bullet.I have dies for flat base,mild hollow point(cup base) and a base gard die. The external punch forms the point of the bullet.I have a SWC solid,a SWC HP and a flat point punch for making precise barrel shaped CORES. The Knurling tool I got from his brother,David of Corbin Enterprises.With this tool you can not only knurl the bearing surface of the bullet but can control the area and DEPTH of knurls.I prefer very little depth,to reduce any possible deformation of bearing surface and yet by using Lee's Liquid Alox I never get even the slightest trace of leading in barrel. You can also get 1:12 lead hardness(or less) commercially produced bullets and put them in your swaging press and reform them to the shape and weight that you want.RCE company(Richard Corbin) has a website and his prices are reasonable-if you just use lead for your match bullets.Guest- hope this info helps.
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Guest1955
Bad time with Mastercast of Illinois
I would never do business with Mike at Mastercast in Illinois again. I ordered and he wrote that the bullets would be shipped at the beginning of the next week. 16 days later, I wrote and asked if they had been shipped. No response.
When I wrote and told him to cancel the order, here is what he wrote: “My goodness, your must be someone special or are very elite person. If I had just known that, I would not have taken your order for the bullets...you neglected to tell me that you were so elitist, special, etc..I did not confirm shipping because I have not sent the bullets...they were going to ship tomorrow, but after this message, they will not ship at all. I do not like the tone of the message. You can't wait for two weeks for bullets? Jesus, man, try ordering before you run out...do not wait to the last minute and expect me to fill your order....ain't gonna happen. Your old supplier took less than a week? Why are you ordering from me then? By all means order from the old supplier. Refund, shortly, when I have time. Absent that, you can kiss my ass. Try treating people the way you would want to be treated, and we won't have this problem.”
I waited four days and he did not refund my money. I told him I would file a dispute. I waited four days and then I filed a dispute and I told Paypal that I had cancelled the order. Here is what he wrote to me “I was ready to send you a refund today(When time permitted, as I told you in the last e-mail) and then I noticed a little complaint that you lodged with PayPal. Now I have to wait and see what you said, what will happen, and if they "freeze" my account as a direct result of what you may have told them. I have transferred all money from my PayPal account to my bank account, and all that remains is YOUR refund. If they "FREEZE" that account, the only funds remaining are your refund. I will not waste my time attempting to lift the "FREEZE" if it happens as a direct result of your words or actions. It is no longer my money...it is yours IF you want it. You created this problem.....deal with it or don't....I will not...I really do not give a "Rats Fanny" either way. I also noted that you did not mention that you cancelled the order when you notified PayPal with your B.S. complaint....No mention that you cancelled the order...an omission on your part perhaps? A complaint without any justification, I might add. A "tad' disingeous"...near a "Lie" don't you think? I guess it is all in the way YOU spin it Slick.”
He was wrong. I did tell Paypal I had cancelled the order. Paypal contacted him and then he only refunded $57. of the $73, even though he never shipped anything. Paypal made him refund all the money after I escalated it
to a claim.
The man never sent the bullets when he said he would, and then was abusive when I cancelled the order two weeks later. There are better bullet suppliers. I would never deal with him again.
When I wrote and told him to cancel the order, here is what he wrote: “My goodness, your must be someone special or are very elite person. If I had just known that, I would not have taken your order for the bullets...you neglected to tell me that you were so elitist, special, etc..I did not confirm shipping because I have not sent the bullets...they were going to ship tomorrow, but after this message, they will not ship at all. I do not like the tone of the message. You can't wait for two weeks for bullets? Jesus, man, try ordering before you run out...do not wait to the last minute and expect me to fill your order....ain't gonna happen. Your old supplier took less than a week? Why are you ordering from me then? By all means order from the old supplier. Refund, shortly, when I have time. Absent that, you can kiss my ass. Try treating people the way you would want to be treated, and we won't have this problem.”
I waited four days and he did not refund my money. I told him I would file a dispute. I waited four days and then I filed a dispute and I told Paypal that I had cancelled the order. Here is what he wrote to me “I was ready to send you a refund today(When time permitted, as I told you in the last e-mail) and then I noticed a little complaint that you lodged with PayPal. Now I have to wait and see what you said, what will happen, and if they "freeze" my account as a direct result of what you may have told them. I have transferred all money from my PayPal account to my bank account, and all that remains is YOUR refund. If they "FREEZE" that account, the only funds remaining are your refund. I will not waste my time attempting to lift the "FREEZE" if it happens as a direct result of your words or actions. It is no longer my money...it is yours IF you want it. You created this problem.....deal with it or don't....I will not...I really do not give a "Rats Fanny" either way. I also noted that you did not mention that you cancelled the order when you notified PayPal with your B.S. complaint....No mention that you cancelled the order...an omission on your part perhaps? A complaint without any justification, I might add. A "tad' disingeous"...near a "Lie" don't you think? I guess it is all in the way YOU spin it Slick.”
He was wrong. I did tell Paypal I had cancelled the order. Paypal contacted him and then he only refunded $57. of the $73, even though he never shipped anything. Paypal made him refund all the money after I escalated it
to a claim.
The man never sent the bullets when he said he would, and then was abusive when I cancelled the order two weeks later. There are better bullet suppliers. I would never deal with him again.