Guys and Gals:
While I'm sitting here introspectively navel-gazing (waiting for tendons and bones to stick together) I consider once again the persistent philosophical question:
To perform at a world-class level, what is the relative importance of genetically-granted "natural ability" vs. the hard-earned dedication and good coaching?
Can a "naturally gifted" shooter, with mediocre coaching, achieve world class levels of performance?
Can a "reasonably skilled" shooter, with gifted coaching, achieve world class performance?
Or do any of us need to be both "naturally gifted" *and* "superbly coached" in order to achieve world class performance?
Specifically applied to international shooting disciplines, of course. I think different disciplines require a different balance of nature vs. nurture perhaps.
Bonus Question:
What on earth would reside in the "natural gift skillset" anyhow? Good eyesight? Abundance of slow-twitch muscle fiber? Intensity of relaxed concentration?
Steve Swartz
Nature vs Nurture
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, David Levene, Spencer, Richard H
There is actual some "science" research that has been done that is at least sort of related to this question. Dr. Dan Landers at Penn State in the 70's and 80's and one of his students, Dr. Brad Hatfield, currently at the University of Maryland, did a number of studies of shooters. I recall when they were at the international tryouts at Pheonix in 1980 doing a number of tests on shooters of every level (reaction time, strength, brain wave measurements, etc). Unfortunately, getting hold of many of the published papers is a little difficult. You can see a list of Dr. Hatfield's publications at:
http://sph.umd.edu/KNES/faculty/bhatfie ... ation.html
(do a search on "marksmen" to find the articles)
http://sph.umd.edu/KNES/faculty/bhatfie ... ation.html
(do a search on "marksmen" to find the articles)
Swartz: What on earth would reside in the "natural gift skillset" anyhow? Good eyesight? Abundance of slow-twitch muscle fiber? Intensity of relaxed concentration?
No Pre conceived notions, acceptance of simplicity, knowledge, physical condition and eyesight that requires no force to perform. "Relaxed" concentration might be better.
I think "intense" concentration is a misleading term. If it is intense, you are forcing it. The more you force one point, the more other points you will forget. Force a point only in training to learn and understand it
No Pre conceived notions, acceptance of simplicity, knowledge, physical condition and eyesight that requires no force to perform. "Relaxed" concentration might be better.
I think "intense" concentration is a misleading term. If it is intense, you are forcing it. The more you force one point, the more other points you will forget. Force a point only in training to learn and understand it
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somewhereinla
- Posts: 76
- Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 3:07 pm
Well, if you look at the art world for example, I don't know of any great artist that have not worked very hard and struggle to get there. I strongly believe that talent is like a muscle, to achieve greatness it needs to be worked out. I also know of many artists that don't have very much talent but are very skilled and do beautiful work, but they will always be missing that little extra that talent gives you to goes beyond skills and technics.
i agree to a certain extent. true, that desire, or determination is important for success, but talent do still count much in shooting.Slowstdy wrote:How about "Desire". The best shooter in the world will not perform if he has no desire. So I guess i am saying as my Gran used to say "Were there's a will, there's a way". If someone has the desire he will over come the lack of natural skill's or Coach, and find some other solution.
Cheers Limey
i tend to prefer talent over coaching. with talent + determination + lousy coaching, a person will still, eventually, reach success. after all, a shooter just needs to learnt from his mistake, and act upon it, to improve. Let's say that he improve by 3 pts a year, one day, he will eventually reach international standards.
on the other hand, a person with superb coaching, determination, but no talent, will not achieve much. I acknowledge that there are exceptions, but most are as i described.
no talent, as in the average shooter. some instinctive actions simply can't be buried away somewhere during shooting, and to have them reactivated once you stop shooting.
for example, in theory, good trigger action means applying a direct force backwards, firing the gun without jerking. but how many of us can actually control that instinctive muscle action, the tendency to jerk the gun when triggering? i will say that most can't. those who can, they are the talented ones.
those talented shooters will go much faster and further than a non-talented guy, even when they lack coaching.
sometimes, i doubt the neccessity of a coach, for shooting. for team sports, i understand, the coach is there to strategise, but for shooting, its more of an individual sport, where a coach can't exactly do much to help one boost one's score.
Steve,
Having been a student of the game for a long time, I have to say that the "natural ability" aspect is the thing that separates the very good shooter from the "world class" shooter. In shooting, the mental aspect is so important. The world class shooters keep their confidence and therefore focus better over a longer period of time. The desire definitely has to be there. I've seen talented shooters get bored with the sport and quit, just as they were starting to advance. Good coaching can take someone with good eyesight and hand/ eye coordination pretty far, but if they don't have that something extra, they will never be world class IMHO. A key also is to get good coaching from the get go.
Having been a student of the game for a long time, I have to say that the "natural ability" aspect is the thing that separates the very good shooter from the "world class" shooter. In shooting, the mental aspect is so important. The world class shooters keep their confidence and therefore focus better over a longer period of time. The desire definitely has to be there. I've seen talented shooters get bored with the sport and quit, just as they were starting to advance. Good coaching can take someone with good eyesight and hand/ eye coordination pretty far, but if they don't have that something extra, they will never be world class IMHO. A key also is to get good coaching from the get go.
Having been a High School rifle team coach for about 8 years I have seen the entire spectrum of shooters. We start anywhere from 20 to 40 new shooters per year and see some with "raw talent" and desire to improve, down to no talent and no desire. The shooter with a lot of talent will rise to the top quickly, but will also eventually struggle because he doesn't have to put in the hard work to excel. The shooter with lesser talent but desire to improve will progress more slowly, but has a better chance of remaining at the higher level because he has learned how to improve as well as shoot. I believe that a coach is fundimental in a shooters performance and should be a guide to help the shooter to help himself. Most shooters can correct problems by themselves if you help them to identify key points on the topic at hand. The coach also needs to guide the shooter in the proper mental direction or he will stall and struggle instead of continuing to improve.
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Steve Swartz
JHoltman (and all):
Interesting observations- particularly with respect to "raw talent" shooters never having to put in the hard work initially (achieving early success too easily).
Does this apply mainly to juniors? I used to run track- I remember in HS very gifted athletes who never really had to work to easily be the fastes qurter-miler on the local team- and never medalling at state simply because they were Big Fish- Little Pond syndrome. On the other hand, not so "gifted" guys wopuld bust their butts, and by the time they were seniors would actually earn metal (medal) at state.
Aren't adults immune from that effect?
Back to juniors- we have a large nuymber of "gifted" juniors who never progress past "Best Junior!" Does this effect explain why we have such a discontinuity between "high performing juniors" and the adults?
This could be a huge-impact consideration for the development of a National Team (well, at least in the USA).
How many "rising star juniors" never crack the "old guy started late" plateau in competition? And how many "nearly world class old guy wannabees" achieve levels of performance above expectations, simply because they know from thne "git go" that they will have to work harder than the average Joe to make any headway?
And how (if at all) should this effect national level policy?
[Of course this is all tempered by the "True Amateur" vs. "Professional Shooter" dichotomy we have in our system.]
Steve "First Competition at 40" Swartz
Interesting observations- particularly with respect to "raw talent" shooters never having to put in the hard work initially (achieving early success too easily).
Does this apply mainly to juniors? I used to run track- I remember in HS very gifted athletes who never really had to work to easily be the fastes qurter-miler on the local team- and never medalling at state simply because they were Big Fish- Little Pond syndrome. On the other hand, not so "gifted" guys wopuld bust their butts, and by the time they were seniors would actually earn metal (medal) at state.
Aren't adults immune from that effect?
Back to juniors- we have a large nuymber of "gifted" juniors who never progress past "Best Junior!" Does this effect explain why we have such a discontinuity between "high performing juniors" and the adults?
This could be a huge-impact consideration for the development of a National Team (well, at least in the USA).
How many "rising star juniors" never crack the "old guy started late" plateau in competition? And how many "nearly world class old guy wannabees" achieve levels of performance above expectations, simply because they know from thne "git go" that they will have to work harder than the average Joe to make any headway?
And how (if at all) should this effect national level policy?
[Of course this is all tempered by the "True Amateur" vs. "Professional Shooter" dichotomy we have in our system.]
Steve "First Competition at 40" Swartz
That said there are many people who don't have a creative bone in their body no matter how much they worked.somewhereinla wrote:Well, if you look at the art world for example, I don't know of any great artist that have not worked very hard and struggle to get there. I strongly believe that talent is like a muscle, to achieve greatness it needs to be worked out. I also know of many artists that don't have very much talent but are very skilled and do beautiful work, but they will always be missing that little extra that talent gives you to goes beyond skills and technics.
A fellow coaching friend of mine was talking to a chinese shooting coach and he basically said that he could train anyone to shoot 570's, 580's takes some talent and 590's your just a freak.
I subscribe that you can rise to a certain level with hard work and good coaching, but after that there seems to be some sort of natural talent that lets the few shoot 590's, as there are so few that can shoot at this level I really don't beleive it's just because they work harder or have better coaching then everyone else.
Steve
I believe that this problem applies to all sports. As far as adults are concerned, they are hampered with adult daily issues (morgage, work, children) that keep them from putting in the work required or being able to have the proper mental attitude. Any one can achieve high levels, adult or junior, if the have a little obsession going on. I believe that most olympians are obsessed to some degree to be able to work that hard.
As for the " rising junior" my own son fits the description.
He started out shooting target rifle at age 12. He progressed at a very fast rate, so I started to take him with me to matches with the HS rifle team letting him shoot as a sub- junior individual. He won his catagory many times and won his first NRA air rifle 3P sectional gold medal in 8th grade. That score not only won the match but beat our entire team as well. Later that year he was shooting 580's in 3P air, 560's in Int. air, and approching 1100 in small bore 3P. As a freshman, he came onto the HS rifle team as the top dog and all our shooter wanted to be just like him as he won everthing he shot. He aquired a lot of medals, went to USAS Nationals, attended Junior Olympics and did quite well. He did not win Nationals or JO, but being there was like winning over everyone that did not make it. Unfortunatly his ability put a target on his back for the rest of his team to shoot for. They worked very hard to beat him and he just floated along still ahead of his team mates. As a HS junior the rest of the team began to close in and occationaly beat him. He was OK with this for the most part, but also became concerned. As a HS senior several of his team mates began to beat him often as they had put in the hard work to improve. My son went into panic mode, trying different positions and attempting to "fix" a problem that really did not exsist. By the end of his senior year he had fallen down to the point that he could not make our #1 team and stuggled the rest of the year.
He did not work hard to improve because he was a local superstar but had no one to chase like his team mate did. As his coach, I was also happy the way things were going and never thought about the problems to come.I should have found a way to challenge him in 8th grade, not wait till his senior year. Hindsight is always 20/20.
I discussed this issue with J.P. O'conner and he discribed it best as he never truly learned to compete.
He is now 20 years old and still shoots and is slowing improving at the rate that was probable right as a beginner. He is now putting in the hard work to improve. I guess that the "talented" shooter has to fall down before he can truly get up to his potential
I believe that this problem applies to all sports. As far as adults are concerned, they are hampered with adult daily issues (morgage, work, children) that keep them from putting in the work required or being able to have the proper mental attitude. Any one can achieve high levels, adult or junior, if the have a little obsession going on. I believe that most olympians are obsessed to some degree to be able to work that hard.
As for the " rising junior" my own son fits the description.
He started out shooting target rifle at age 12. He progressed at a very fast rate, so I started to take him with me to matches with the HS rifle team letting him shoot as a sub- junior individual. He won his catagory many times and won his first NRA air rifle 3P sectional gold medal in 8th grade. That score not only won the match but beat our entire team as well. Later that year he was shooting 580's in 3P air, 560's in Int. air, and approching 1100 in small bore 3P. As a freshman, he came onto the HS rifle team as the top dog and all our shooter wanted to be just like him as he won everthing he shot. He aquired a lot of medals, went to USAS Nationals, attended Junior Olympics and did quite well. He did not win Nationals or JO, but being there was like winning over everyone that did not make it. Unfortunatly his ability put a target on his back for the rest of his team to shoot for. They worked very hard to beat him and he just floated along still ahead of his team mates. As a HS junior the rest of the team began to close in and occationaly beat him. He was OK with this for the most part, but also became concerned. As a HS senior several of his team mates began to beat him often as they had put in the hard work to improve. My son went into panic mode, trying different positions and attempting to "fix" a problem that really did not exsist. By the end of his senior year he had fallen down to the point that he could not make our #1 team and stuggled the rest of the year.
He did not work hard to improve because he was a local superstar but had no one to chase like his team mate did. As his coach, I was also happy the way things were going and never thought about the problems to come.I should have found a way to challenge him in 8th grade, not wait till his senior year. Hindsight is always 20/20.
I discussed this issue with J.P. O'conner and he discribed it best as he never truly learned to compete.
He is now 20 years old and still shoots and is slowing improving at the rate that was probable right as a beginner. He is now putting in the hard work to improve. I guess that the "talented" shooter has to fall down before he can truly get up to his potential
lot of good comments.
jholtman, I also took the path of your son many years ago. started competing at 12, beating the seniors by 15, kicked out of junior class as it was decided it was not fair to the older kids!, started competing internationaly on the national senior team at 16, then I was introduced to coaching.
and yes, the seniors were over the moon being beaten by a pimply faced brat, so life was not fun on the range.
Like your son, I ended up in all sorts of trouble thanks to those who think they can coach at elite level. not including those that go out of their way to knock you down.
So respectfully, my advice is find him the best coach you can asap, as a matter of urgency. the longer he stumbles around in the dark, the more damage he can be potentially doing to himself.
Your son was competing before, he didn't know it. now it sounds like he is trying to survive.
anyone that doesnt think he was competing, hasnt a good grasp on how to compete themselves.
just my opinion
so I guess you can figure out my answer to the original post.
bryan
jholtman, I also took the path of your son many years ago. started competing at 12, beating the seniors by 15, kicked out of junior class as it was decided it was not fair to the older kids!, started competing internationaly on the national senior team at 16, then I was introduced to coaching.
and yes, the seniors were over the moon being beaten by a pimply faced brat, so life was not fun on the range.
Like your son, I ended up in all sorts of trouble thanks to those who think they can coach at elite level. not including those that go out of their way to knock you down.
So respectfully, my advice is find him the best coach you can asap, as a matter of urgency. the longer he stumbles around in the dark, the more damage he can be potentially doing to himself.
Your son was competing before, he didn't know it. now it sounds like he is trying to survive.
anyone that doesnt think he was competing, hasnt a good grasp on how to compete themselves.
just my opinion
so I guess you can figure out my answer to the original post.
bryan
Hi Bryan,
I am sure that there are many cases like yours and my son's.
When I heard JP tell me that he did not know how to compete, I thought the same thing. But after giving that comment some thought, I tend to agree with him. A key element of competing is the ability to reach deep down inside one's self to rise above the competion and when thing go wrong. My son never had to do that when he was winning. All he had to do was show up and shoot. Later when he needed to rise to the top, he did not know how to reach down inside as he had not developed that skill.
I am sure that there are many cases like yours and my son's.
When I heard JP tell me that he did not know how to compete, I thought the same thing. But after giving that comment some thought, I tend to agree with him. A key element of competing is the ability to reach deep down inside one's self to rise above the competion and when thing go wrong. My son never had to do that when he was winning. All he had to do was show up and shoot. Later when he needed to rise to the top, he did not know how to reach down inside as he had not developed that skill.
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2650 Plus
What it takes
A massive ego to believe you can beat the world . Excellent motor skills. Perfectly correct infornation about how to shoot the shot. Someone or something to help devise the training plan. Fanatisism to devote the time necessary to reach the goal set by the first requirement. And a solid belief in positive approaches with a total avoidance of the negative. Start young. Learn how to win. Play fair, follow the rules. No crutches.ie drugs to create wins through chemistery.Believe in what you are doing and in yourself. Find a great coach,that has coached the last three gold medalists. Wow things just keep poping up. Good Shooting Bill Horton
that sounds about right bill.
Hi jholtman, I would say it is not as common as you think.
yes, dig down and rise above the opposition. but what happens when you are taught to do it the wrong way. not build on what you were already doing, most likely under your supervision he was well on track. may well be if it aint broke, dont try to fix it.
often I see people try to fix up what they dont understand.
maybe I am off track? maybe not
regards bryan
Hi jholtman, I would say it is not as common as you think.
yes, dig down and rise above the opposition. but what happens when you are taught to do it the wrong way. not build on what you were already doing, most likely under your supervision he was well on track. may well be if it aint broke, dont try to fix it.
often I see people try to fix up what they dont understand.
maybe I am off track? maybe not
regards bryan
What in the world did you do to yourself to get in such a fix? My thoughts and prayers are with you. I was in a car accident many years ago that tore my tendons and ligaments in my right (shooting) shoulder, arm, side, etc. It took about 6 months to heal. I recently had less serious injuries to my right arm and it has taken about 6 mos., but hey I'm 20 years older. I am just starting to shoot a little with the right arm. I have been shooting left-handed for a few months. It was an eye opener to struggle with the left, but I started making progress pretty rapidly. My point is that it takes time, but you will be back on track in a few months.
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Fred Mannis
- Posts: 1298
- Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 8:37 pm
- Location: Delaware
Nature vs Nurture
Excellent article on this subject by J.P. O'Connor in the current issue of USA Shooting.
Success is about hard work, not raw talent
Shooting performance
Hi
A study was carried out in Russia some decades back now as to a shooters performance allied to their level of intellegence.
It was found that shooters with above average intellegence performed better. This was apparently due to their capability for self analysis and a better control of self management after being pointed in the right direction by a coach. It was also found that most shooting performance improvement was instigated by the shooter with the coaches imput only being 20% effective. Shooters with no coach involvement found their performance curve less steep with much slower improvement. However, there has to be exceptions to all these criterior and variables must feature as we are all different.
It was also found that in the off hand [standing position] shooters of below average hight [whatever that is]? performed slightly better in both sexes. This was due to a lower centre of gravity than tall people which in turn makes for a more stable hold. Again, there are exceptions.
Shooters who worked out and had a slow resting heart beat also performed better.
Slight aggression or focus on the part of the shooter is a procedure only few shooters achieve, but it has the desired effect of keeping everything else not needed in the shot release out of the way. This is probably the biggest factor amongst all the world class shooters. The late great Malcolm Cooper had one more trick up his sleeve and that was he shot for the audience!
Lastly, i do believe that some shooters take to shooting like ducks to water, where as others need more time learn the sport.
A study was carried out in Russia some decades back now as to a shooters performance allied to their level of intellegence.
It was found that shooters with above average intellegence performed better. This was apparently due to their capability for self analysis and a better control of self management after being pointed in the right direction by a coach. It was also found that most shooting performance improvement was instigated by the shooter with the coaches imput only being 20% effective. Shooters with no coach involvement found their performance curve less steep with much slower improvement. However, there has to be exceptions to all these criterior and variables must feature as we are all different.
It was also found that in the off hand [standing position] shooters of below average hight [whatever that is]? performed slightly better in both sexes. This was due to a lower centre of gravity than tall people which in turn makes for a more stable hold. Again, there are exceptions.
Shooters who worked out and had a slow resting heart beat also performed better.
Slight aggression or focus on the part of the shooter is a procedure only few shooters achieve, but it has the desired effect of keeping everything else not needed in the shot release out of the way. This is probably the biggest factor amongst all the world class shooters. The late great Malcolm Cooper had one more trick up his sleeve and that was he shot for the audience!
Lastly, i do believe that some shooters take to shooting like ducks to water, where as others need more time learn the sport.
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Fred Mannis
- Posts: 1298
- Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 8:37 pm
- Location: Delaware
on USAS home page look under Media on left hand sidebryan wrote:joined up on line to the usa shooting to see article, still nothing?
where do you get it?
or try this link http://www.usashooting.org/mag/USAS_New ... 202007.pdf