London 2012 shooting venues

[Nick_Burman]

Hi all, where will the shooting events in the 2012 Olympics be held?

Also could anyone confirm (or shoot down...) a rumor I've heard that 3P and prone shooters coming from outside the UK will have to hand in their weapons to the powers-that-be on arrival at the airport and that these will only be available at the range for practice and for the matches themselves?

Cheers NB

[David Levene]

The probability is that the shooting events will either be at a temporary range at Woolwich or a more permanent facility at Dartford.

I have not yet heard what the arrangements will be for rifle/shotgun transport and storage. I would guess that we will not know the final arrangements until 2011.

Pistols are another matter. Competitors will only have access to them in designated areas such as the range or workshop.

[Hemmers]

Rifles and Shotguns obviously don't pose such a problem. Since they are legal in the UK, as long as your paperwork is in order (permits, etc), I'd imagine you'd just carry on through customs and take your firearms to the armoury (wherever the shooting events are located), and book them in according to whatever provision is put in place by the organisers, same as international competitors coming to Bisley Smallbore Week or the Imperial Meeting.

Since most forms of handgun are banned in the UK, they'll be a faff with special provision as David says. If the Manchester Commonwealths are anything to go by, they'll probably be taken on arrival at the airport by the Police/military, housed at a police/military controlled armoury and only handed out when absolutely necessary.

Apparently competitors who have spent >10 years training to the very highest standard of competition are highly untrustworthy and liable to go on a killing spree, or to try and sell guns onto the black market, and so must have access to their kit severely restricted.

[Marc Orvin]

Handling firearms at the 1996 games in Atlanta was all done with security in mind. First of all, there could be no firearms at the Olympic Village. That meant that when the athletes were met at customs in the Atlanta airport, their firearms (all, not just pistols) were picked up and taken to secured storage at the Wolf Creek venue. The only times the athletes were allowed access to their firearms were when they were at the venue to practice or compete. No firearms were allowed to leave the venue.

When it came time for the athletes to leave for home, the firearms storage crew had a list of departure times and airlines for all competitors. They trucked the firearms to the airport and met the athletes there so that each individual could declare his equipment to the airline.

I would assume that this same kind of procedure would be used at other olympic venues.

It will be interesting to watch the procedures for the 2012 games, what with the handgun prohibitions. Something will have to change there. Wouldn't it be great if it changed in a big way to where our friends in England could once again be allowed to use modern handguns even after the games are completed.

[Hemmers]

It will be interesting to watch the procedures for the 2012 games, what with the handgun prohibitions. Something will have to change there. Wouldn't it be great if it changed in a big way to where our friends in England could once again be allowed to use modern handguns even after the games are completed.

As I say, it's already been done once with the '02 Commonwealths. Basically handguns fall under Section 5 of our Firearms Act (S5 containing all prohibited weapons as I understand it). The Home Secretary has the power to grant Sect. 5 exemptions. Some sort of exemption for competitors would be granted for the 2012 Olympics and 2014 Commonwealths, but probably with conditions that the individual may only be in possession of the firearm on the range, and for competition/training purposes or workshop purposes (i.e. for official games training sessions and comps). They wouldn't be able to take it fro the airport to the armoury themselves.

I haven't been in the game long enough to have been there for '02 (only started shooting in '05), and only know what snippets I have heard from multiple sources. If one of the more experienced board members could fill me in the procedures laid down for Manchester '02 that would be great.
As I understand it, it was pretty similar to what you've described for Atlanta Marc. Taken off them at the airport. Given back to them at specified times for specified events.

I agree with no firearms in the Athlete's Village. There's no need for it. There's no need for any equipment (short of clothing) to be at the village - rifle, shotguns, pistols, boats, kayaks, horses, javelins, bicycles - would all surely be stored at the respective venues, whether in a boat shed or an armoury.

However, that doesn't excuse taking people's kit off them. Are they not trustworthy enough to transport it from the airport to the venue and sign it in to the armoury (as you would at any other event) without running off to do something illegal?

It could be argued that it is for the athlete's convenience - they can go straight to the village and settle in, without worrying about their kit - but I doubt if there were courier services running people's kayaks to the airport from the storage facilities?

[Marc Orvin]

Hemmers,
In fact, there were folks hauling boats (kayaks, those long boats with lots of oarsmen, forget what they are called at the moment, )and other such gear for these olypians. As I was moving a cart full of gun cases through the Atlanta terminal we ran across several groups hauling those incredibly long oars they use on the 8 man boats. The organizing body for that event provided transport for all the countries competing.

I have been to the Atlanta airport many times before and since, and I have never seen such incredible amounts of cargo being moved as after the games.

I'm anxious to visit England for the 2012 World Cup. I'm sure they will be having a World Cup that year just prior to the games so that all the ranges can be tested and the organizing committee can get their feet wet. They have had a WC prior to every Olympics at the host country since I got involved in this stuff in 1992. I would assume it would hold true for London as well. At least I hope. I'm not really interested in the mad house that is part of the Olympic games. The WC's are a good time, with more competitors, more countries, less hoopla, great folks, great shooting. Not to mention, a guy might actually find a room nearby without having to commute to Scotland ;>)

[Mike M.]

I have two problems with that kind of arrangement.

First, my gear is being stored at a location not under my control...and not accountable when it gets stolen. Oh, I MIGHT get money...but not time. And if you are shooting original muzzle-loading arms, as I do, you don't just call up the factory for replacements.

Second are the cleaning arrangements, which aren't a big issue for cartridge shooters, but are very much an issue for us.

[Spencer]

That's the way it is at the Olympics.

As far as I am aware, we haven't lost a firearm at the Olympics yet - the armoury system is very thorough and secure (and there are no muzzle loader events at the Olympics)

Spencer

[David Levene]

And if you are shooting original muzzle-loading arms, as I do, you don't just call up the factory for replacements.

Second are the cleaning arrangements, which aren't a big issue for cartridge shooters, but are very much an issue for us.

Mike, there aren't going to be any muzzle loading arms at the Olympics.

I cannot comment on cleaning arrangements for the Olympics, it's a bit too far away at the moment. At the 2002 Commonwealth Games however there was a special room inside the secure zone.

I really don't see this as unusual or much of a problem. Going back to when I was competing at major international championships we had to leave our pistols in central armouries.

[Alex L]

I worked at the Federation Cup - the preactice event for the Comm Games, here in Melbourne, and I worked in the Armoury.
The system worked well, with each shooter having a numbered tag on the Gun ox, and the shooter having an identical tag. The gun box was swapped for the shooters tag, and vice versa when the gun was returned to armoury.

They were in Country order, and all the Armoury staff were shooters, who knew about the safety of firearms, etc, etc, etc. Ammo and gunboxes were collected at the airport, and trucked down the the armoury at the range.

Shooters were rostered to train and could collect their gear when they were ready. There was a special Safe area for repairs and cleaning.
This seems to be an International system.

The same system was then used for the Games proper. (After being trained in Armoury at the Fed. Cup, - they then put me as a register keeper at the Comm. Games, running up and down the 25metre ranges!!! )

The biggest problem will most probably be computers not talking to each other - the Armoury part will work like clockwork!

Stop worrying about it - just get practicing, so that you can enjoy the Games, when they arrive, and you go home with a good score under your belt.

Liz, - wife of Alex L.! who is recovering after the 3 weeks of very hard work (and very early mornings! - but I would not have missed it for anything! So many happy memories of friendly shooters to chat to.!)

[Guest]

I really don't see this as unusual or much of a problem. Going back to when I was competing at major international championships we had to leave our pistols in central armouries.

Yes, but did you sign them in yourself, or did they get taken from you at the airport. I'd much prefer to go to a building, see a guy go and take my case and put it on a shelf, then lock the door. Not consign it to a guy and a truck.

Also, question. Who ran the pistol armouries at the Commonwealths 2002? Was it manned by organisers, or by military/police? I was under the impression it was police cos of all the hype about handguns.
Just wondering because I no faith in the UK police at the moment whatsoever, and when firearms come into the mix, even less so. (UK armed plod have had what, no less than 3 NDs this year alone that have ended up with people getting shot, none of them in action, just pure stupidity).

[David Levene]

I really don't see this as unusual or much of a problem. Going back to when I was competing at major international championships we had to leave our pistols in central armouries.

Yes, but did you sign them in yourself, or did they get taken from you at the airport. I'd much prefer to go to a building, see a guy go and take my case and put it on a shelf, then lock the door. Not consign it to a guy and a truck.

It varied, a mixture of the two. I remember for the 1990 Commonwealth Games in New Zealand they set up a special police office in a Portakabin on the tarmac at Auckland Airport. We handed the guns in there and the next time we saw them they were in 20ft shipping containers at the range.

It's just one of the "joys" of international shooting. If you want to go to a competition in another country then you abide by their laws. That's a fact of life. I'm afraid that personal preferences take a back seat.


Edit note: I just re-read Marc Orvin's post (the 4th post in this thread). It seems like Atlanta had similar arrangements in 1996.

[Richard H]

I think if you really looked into it similar arrangements have been made since the 1976 Olympics as well as the Winter Games. This happens at World Cups and other international events. Personally whats the difference if its the police or the organizers who look after you firearms? As long as they are secure and handled properly, there's no problem. Guest do you mind not carrying your firearms on the plane? There you're turning it over to some gorilla thats going to kick the crap out of it. I've heard of way more shooters losing their equipment and getting it damaged on airlines than during an event (actually never heard of any).

[BigAl]

I think if you really looked into it similar arrangements have been made since the 1976 Olympics as well as the Winter Games. This happens at World Cups and other international events. Personally whats the difference if its the police or the organizers who look after you firearms? As long as they are secure and handled properly, there's no problem. Guest do you mind not carrying your firearms on the plane? There you're turning it over to some gorilla thats going to kick the crap out of it. I've heard of way more shooters losing their equipment and getting it damaged on airlines than during an event (actually never heard of any).

Malcom Cooper had the stock of his fee rifle broken during a training session at Barcelona: it was knocked off a table by a BBC TV reporter! and then repaird by the Russian team armourer, Malcom then went on to susefully defend his mens 3x40 gold medal only the second time any shooter had done this (The other was Gary Anderson (USA) IIRC)

Al

[David Levene]

I think if you really looked into it similar arrangements have been made since the 1976 Olympics as well as the Winter Games. This happens at World Cups and other international events. Personally whats the difference if its the police or the organizers who look after you firearms? As long as they are secure and handled properly, there's no problem. Guest do you mind not carrying your firearms on the plane? There you're turning it over to some gorilla thats going to kick the crap out of it. I've heard of way more shooters losing their equipment and getting it damaged on airlines than during an event (actually never heard of any).

Malcom Cooper had the stock of his fee rifle broken during a training session at Barcelona: it was knocked off a table by a BBC TV reporter!

Yes, but I think Richard was referring to the rarity of damage whilst in an armoury.

[Richard H]

I think if you really looked into it similar arrangements have been made since the 1976 Olympics as well as the Winter Games. This happens at World Cups and other international events. Personally whats the difference if its the police or the organizers who look after you firearms? As long as they are secure and handled properly, there's no problem. Guest do you mind not carrying your firearms on the plane? There you're turning it over to some gorilla thats going to kick the crap out of it. I've heard of way more shooters losing their equipment and getting it damaged on airlines than during an event (actually never heard of any).

Malcom Cooper had the stock of his fee rifle broken during a training session at Barcelona: it was knocked off a table by a BBC TV reporter! and then repaird by the Russian team armourer, Malcom then went on to susefully defend his mens 3x40 gold medal only the second time any shooter had done this (The other was Gary Anderson (USA) IIRC)

Al

This has nothing to do with things being lost, stolen or damaged while in the custody of the organizing committee or the authorities, which is what this thread is about.

I've seen people knock and drop all sorts of things during practices and matches but it really has nothing to do with the discussion here.

[Iuri]

I've heard of way more shooters losing their equipment and getting it damaged on airlines than during an event (actually never heard of any).

It was a very long time ago, but at the 1920 olympics, at Belgium, the Brazilian team had all their pistols stolen and had to compete with pistols lended from the USA team.

[Richard H]

I've heard of way more shooters losing their equipment and getting it damaged on airlines than during an event (actually never heard of any).

It was a very long time ago, but at the 1920 olympics, at Belgium, the Brazilian team had all their pistols stolen and had to compete with pistols lended from the USA team.

They did very well with the borrowed guns picking up three medals (which were the only three they won). Only question is did they have to turn them in or were they stolen form where they decided to keep them. Seeing it was the whole Brazilian team it sounds like they were probably stolen from where ever they (the team) decided to keep them not form a central storage. But hey who knows.

I guess the bottom line is if your really bothered by turning your pistols over, there's no sense competing internationally because you're most likely going to have to turn them over at sometime, even in the US.

[robf]

I suppose UK shooters can just rock up with the thing in the boot of the car, shoot and go home as usual...?

[Spencer]

I suppose UK shooters can just rock up with the thing in the boot of the car, shoot and go home as usual...?

At the Olympics? - You are joking!
a/ rock up in the car - no
b/ take firearms directly into the venue - no
c/ take firearms directly from the venue - no

Spencer