Cents and sensibility - old V new

[coldchickens]

Hi all,
I'm in Australia and very interested in rapid fire and sport pistol. Primarily rapid, and am preparing to make the first purchase.
Some options on which I'd like to hear some opinions if possible:
1 - Brand new pardini rapid AU$2350
2 - 2nd hand pardini sp new AU$1700
3 - FAS 602 old in 'nice' condition AU$500
4 - other options
I don't have a lot of money, so would probably need to take on a loan to finance a new pistol, but I know that in rapid technology counts.
Appreciate your take on it.
Cheers.

[Mike Taylor]

If you are new to shooting Rapid Fire and Sport Pistol, my first inclination is to recommend less gun and more ammo.
While it might be true that technology is more important in Rapid Fire than in Sport Pistol, I suggest this is only a consideration at the 'elite' level (World Cup, World Championship, Olympics). Technique and mental preparation are far more important.
I'm trying to say that a good, reliable pistol of modest cost will be entirely adequate when starting out in Rapid Fire.
"Good" meaning that the grip, sights, trigger, and balance are such that you can concentrate upon technique and not the gun.
"Reliable" meaning that you have the confidence that your gun (and ammo) will perform without malfunction through an entire match.
From my experience with the FAS 602 (and also a 601), I found it met the criteria for 'good' (allowing that you might first have to modify the grip to suit you). However, in my experience, my FAS 602 (purchased used) failed the reliability criterion. I liked the gun very much, especially in sustained fire. It handled beautifully (subjective), but I could not count on it to perform without a malfunction. Oh, sometimes I could get through a match, but never two. I was forever trying to balance ammo and recoil buffer pad and recoil spring. Then a broken firing pin and a broken recoil buffer pad retainer. Add in screws that retain the trigger box working loose and it was too much. Compared to a DES 69, or a GSP, or a High Standard 107, or an Hammerli 208, the FAS 602 was a PIA when it came to reliability.
Now I expect David Levene will counter my limited experience with his more extensive experience maintaining a number of FAS 602 pistols. David has detailed, in another thread here on TT, the method he used to ensure the reliability of the FAS 602. In part, I believe that involved having ready access to the critical parts (springs, buffer pads, retainers, firing pins) - something I did not have.
So... that said, I would suggest the FAS 602 as your first choice (of the three you mentioned) - provided that you have ready access to the critical parts (buffer pad, firing pin, buffer retainer, recoil springs) and that you, or someone you have ready access to, can 'tune' the recoil system (recoil spring and buffer pad) to your ammo of choice so that the gun performs reliably.
I haven't experience with the Pardini Rapid Fire model. Would that be the SP1 with electronic trigger or the SPnew with mechanical trigger you are considering? If it is the electronic trigger version, there still seems to be issues with it. There is a very recent thread on this subject by another Aussie here on TT (oops, faulty memory - actually it was on Bullseye-L). And the SP1 is apparently not the same Pardini as used by elite shooter Ralf Schumann (spelling?), so you would not be getting the latest technology with the SP1.
I do have the SPnew (not the Rapid Fire version). I find it reliable. As yet, I have not 'tuned' the recoil dampers to my satisfaction but that is primarily because I am still working on the grip. Another TT contributor apparently has had success in reducing muzzle jump in Rapid Fire by 'playing with' the arrangement of springs and weights in the damper. This would depend upon the ammo and the physical characteristics of the shooter, so an arrangement that suits one might not suit another. Experiment will be necessary.
In summation: There are other options for Rapid Fire, and doubtless others will chime in, but of your three choices, I suggest:
#1 - FAS 602 if you can be sure it is reliable (put the money you save into ammo)
#2 - SPnew, if #1 is suspect in the reliability department.
#3 - avoid the SP1 unless some other TT contributors can point out positive experiences with its reliability.
My opinions of course, YMMV.
Regards,
Mike T.

[coldchickens]

Thankyou very much for the post Mike.
I will have to investigate the condition of the FAS and also parts availability locally beforehand.
There are some uniques floating about, initially I thought their grip was too perpendicular to be really competative.
Looks like it will take a while to come to grips with learning, rather than expecting to shoot top scores straight away. Sensibility wins.

Thanks again and best regards.
Luke.

[David Levene]

Now I expect David Levene will counter my limited experience with his more extensive experience maintaining a number of FAS 602 pistols. David has detailed, in another thread here on TT, the method he used to ensure the reliability of the FAS 602. In part, I believe that involved having ready access to the critical parts (springs, buffer pads, retainers, firing pins) - something I did not have.

You are right Mike, I did carry quite a few spares although to be fair I rarely had to use them on the range. My 602 repaid my regular minor maintenance sessions with fantastic reliability.

My tips for a reliable 602, change all of the springs one a year, change the buffer clip twice per year, change the hammer box fixing screw as soon as you get it.

The hammer box screw fitted by FAS has a domed head. That shape, whilst having a low profile, means that they only have room for a smaller hexagon key. It is therefore too easy to round off the corners of the key or socket before you get the screw sufficiently tight. A standard socket head cap screw takes a larger hex key, allowing greater tightening torque, but is slightly higher and will normally contact the underside of the slide. A few strokes of a good file across the top of the screw will reduce its height enought to allow the slide to miss it. You don't need the screw to be ultra-tight, but it needs to be tighter than the dome head will allow.

Another tip, pre-fit your spare firing pin to make sure it works reliably. The quality control on firing pin dimensions was never good.

[ColinC]

Coldchickens,
I go along with the thread that to succeed in rapidfire you need to have a reliable pistol. I haven't personally used a FAS but believe they can be finnicky when it comes to ammo.
Instead of breaking the bank to buy a new pistol, I would look around for a reliable secondhand Unique DES69 or DES69U or similar. They may be out of production and are virtually indestructible but spare parts are easy to come by.
It will cost about $600 for a DES69 and $850 for a DES69U. They are usually snapped up quickly when they come on the open market because of their reliability. My old Unique never misfired unless I used substandard cheap-as-chips ammo.
If you are interested I can put you in touch with owners of both models who have them for sale for around the prices quoted above. Not sure where you are in Oz but private sales can be easily handled through local gundealers at each end.
Colin

[xtreme]

IMHO Reliability would be my number one choice when just starting. Mastering sight alignment and trigger control. Having to fine tune a pistol when learning, and not knowing what you are doing, is a recipe for disaster. Once the basics are learnt, upgrade then.
Mark