NRA Smallbore Changes- A-23 target for Camp Perry 3p

[pdeal]

I just read this on www.shootersjournal.com - posted by Dave Cramer who is a member of the commitee.

They have decided to change from the A-50 to the A-23 target for 3p at Camp Perry. I can't believe it, what a step backwards.


The NRA Smallbore Rifle Committee met at Fairfax, VA. on 23 Sep. A number of items enacted will be of interest to the readers of this site. Howard Moody continues to work for changes to the National Championships. Most are quite positive. There will be some competitors who may have different feelings about some changes. Most all changes came from competitors input to the SB Committee. The following is a brief summary of SB Committee actions.

1. SB Position...Changed the target to the A-23 for 2008.

2. SB PRONE and POSITION...reinstated the stickers that competitors will place on targets. NRA is reseaching a bar code system also for tgt. I.D. Stickers will be pre-printed with competitor info to include, Tgt #, Relay#, Match # Stage#

3. SB PRONE and POS... reverse relays..ie. Master relay will shoot second on day one, alternating daily, and then finishing first on final day. Will assist score tabulation and awards ceremony script writing.

4. Scored Targets, will be hung on racks for competitor viewing..Will use two buildings behind scoreboard building for target racks. In out of weather. Competitor can view target prior to challenging.

5. New target handling proceedure by scorers...less duplication of score entry, and hopefully better accuracy.

6. Whistler Boy match..restructured...Open and Restricted(cmp rifles) ..two categories, working on dual awards. Challenges will be allowed in Whistler Boy match(were not in past) Target for Position portion will be A-23,.

7. More wind flags will be in place in 2008. Looking at 2 flags, every other point, and flags in line out at 25 yds and 75 yds.

8. Discussed target marking or mismarking of targets. Hopefully clarified the applicable rules, although they were pretty clear. New sticker process should eliminate problems like those experienced in 2007

9. 2008 is Roberts Team Qualification at Camp Perry

10. 2008 Camp Perry entry can be done on line or by mail. If done on internet, squadding can be done at same time. Competitor will know point and relay assignments as soon as they enter on line. Will continue to handle special request squadding as in past, attempting to squad competitors close to one another when requested. Squadding will be done on first come first serve basis..beginning on the high numbered end of range. There will be a date announced when squadding and entry on line can begin.

11. The British won the Dewar Postal Team for 2007...Again!.....score was 7829 to 7785 for USA. NRA did recieve some communication from the Brits, suggesting that the British should move their firing of the postal match back to Bisley. Make it a more fair competition. They shoot in a "very" protected range location as of now. British have won this competition 14 out of the past 16 years. Margin of victory is usually around 45-55 points. Maybe they are a bit ashamed of beating up on us so regularly. We shall see what happens in that regard.

12. State Association Team captains should review rule 2.12, that states that State Association Teams entered at C. Perry, need to have the signed authorization of their State Association. Also, team members must be either individual members of the association, or members of clubs that are affiliated with their State Associaiton.. There is some violation of this currently, and could pose a problem in future. ( A team could be challenged by another team concerning eligiblity) Solution is having the State Authorization prior to team enty at camp perry.

13. Howard Moody indicated that a lot of vendor donations of prize items are available for the award schedule at Camp Perry. Looks like the whole championship is moving up a notch, as far as awards are concerned. Most agree that this years firearm trophy awards were first class.


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[Spencer]

For those of us not in the NRA Rifle 'loop', what are the differences in the targets?

Spencer

[Hap Rocketto]

Spencer,

The NRA 50 yard A-23/5 target is 'bigger' than the ISSF A-51 in that is about the same size black but has larger scoring rings

I have attached both targets for comparison.

Regards,

Hap

[ADC59]

Pete:
I find this very hard to believe and am stunned. It would make more sense to go all the way back and shoot 4-P for the national championships.

or shoot 3-P on the A-26 target which I believe is the old international target.
Alan Carey

[TomN]

I, too, am stunned by this news. It's been some years since I have participated in the National Matches (but always when they have been fired as 3P matches) and I have not heard of any problems with the current targets. How long has this proposal been in the works? What is the motivation for the change? Will the entire system of outdoor 3P competition be changed?

At first blush, this is an incredibly bad idea.

[ADC59]

Pete:

Upon further thought it might make things a little more interesting if they changed the target to the A-23 AND changed the # of sighters per stage to two, just like highpower.

Alan Carey

[pdeal]

I spoke with Dave Cramer who is on the committee and was not in favor of this change and he said it was because of complaints that the international target is too hard and unreasonable under the windy conditions at Camp Perry. I don't know that any other details are worked out.

[rrpc]

As a reason that seems to be incredibly simplistic! What would the purpose be? Higher scores that couldn't be accepted outside Camp Perry!

Lots of ranges have tough windy conditions. Century Range in Bisley springs to mind, but that's surely an incentive to learn to read wind better, not one to make it easier!

From an international viewpoint, it would knock Camp Perry off most peoples calendars, unless of course the NRA doesn't give a fiddlers about anything or anyone outside the US.

I think I've answered my own question there :)

[TomN]

If that is the reason - that conditions at Camp Perry are too difficult - then we are surely lost. Everybody shoots at the same target; everybody tries to hit the middle. Fire your shots, add up the score, the one with the most points wins. Deal with it.

[J. Saucier]

Although I do agree changing to the A-23 at Perry is a bad idea...most of the junior smallbore prone matches we attend use the A-23.

Our team has voted a few times to skip a match because of targets or course of fire. (We have a small practice range with 50 yrds only and don't practice 100 yard or Dewar matches.

We usually practice on the A-23 and we like to shoot the A-23 at matches.

We only shoot the A-50 if we are also holding a "final" at a conference match.

J.

[EdR]

This is horrible it just dosen't make any sense. If the targets are to hard than how can people still be able to break 1100 at perry. Also if this is changed will classification standards be changed if not there's gonna be alot of masters. Last is nra 3p gonna completely switch or is it just for perry.

[pdeal]

Email the NRA rifle department and tell them what you think of it - rifle@nrahq.org

J. Saucier: Our juniors shoot only the harder targets in practice. Outdoors A-50, indoors USA-50. If the kids have gotten use to this and I never hear a complaint. If kids get used to an easier target they tend to think of them selves as shooting at a particular score level which is inflated and they don't want to shoot the hard target. For the real young ones I just tell them work on hitting the black and count hits in the black. If your range is only a 50yd range then you can shoot the A-51 which is the international target reduced for 50yds.

[mgbdietrich]

Hold on everyone, the end of the world is not near!!!

Ok, of you that posted how many of you have broke 1100 on both days at Perry? Seriously, how many. Yes I have, I also am position and prone distinguished so I have shot some pretty darn good scores at Perry. Do you ever look at the scores below the top 10 shooters. They are HORRIBLE!!! Perry is a TERRIBLE place to shoot on an international target. Yes, it has been done and the center of the target is still the center but I know only 1 ever 400 prone has been shot there during 3p and very RARELY do scores ever get above 1140 for a daily agg.

This is about participation, remember what happened to alot of club shooters after the move from the A17 to A36? THEY QUIT!!! The same thing happened at Perry.

I also am sick of hearing about how all junior shooters should shoot is international style targets. How many of these same juniors keep competing after high school if they are'nt shooting collegiately? Not many. How many graduated collegiate shooters do you see competing if they aren't a resident athelete? Not many. Why is that? Because we focus too much on performance and not enough about the friendship and comaraderie of competing.

This is a reason that our sport is dying, we need MORE recreational shooters because they put the money in the coffers of all the local matches. The nationals needs them too.

We always think about the 10% that actually can be match winners, we need to work with the other 90% because if we don't our sport will be dead in 10 years.

Rant off, but just be more open minded to a new idea.

Will I be shooting position at Perry this year, no, I haven't done so since 2000 but I remember very well shooting scores under 1100 and winning my class. That really is an empty win and one of endurance rather than performance.

Morgen Dietrich
Olivia, MN

[1813benny]

Hold on everyone, the end of the world is not near!!!

This is about participation, remember what happened to alot of club shooters after the move from the A17 to A36? THEY QUIT!!! The same thing happened at Perry.

I also am sick of ....... Because we focus too much on performance and not enough about the friendship and comaraderie of competing.

.....I remember very well shooting scores under 1100 and winning my class. That really is an empty win and one of endurance rather than performance.

Morgan - you make some valid points in your evaluation of the target change. At first, I was pretty shocked at the change...and even after quite some time thinking about it, I am still not really sure if this is a good move. I guess that at the end of the day, if it increases participation at Camp Perry, then fine. As in some other posts that I have made on other sites, I don't agree w/ the decision, but I will support the change....for now.

As indicated in other posts, many junior coaches only have their shooters train on the A36 target instead of the A17. The reason for this is psychological....always train on the hardest target and a different target for a match will be inconsequential.

THE ISSUE WITH JUNIORS NOT STAYING WITH THE SPORT IS NOT THE TARGET THEY SHOOT ON....IT IS THE COACHING ENVIRONMENT THAT THEY ARE EXPOSED TO.

One particular club coach that I know of drives the juniors only for 3-P ISU. They only shoot 4-p once each year for indoor sectionals, and the coach essentially forbids shooters from shooting a conventional prone match. For the hundreds of shooters that he has pushed through the program, I cannot think of one that has stuck with it after college. This is the coach's fault...not a target. Some shooters can advance and enjoy the ISU world, while others are simply happy shooting conventional prone at a club level. IT IS THE RESPONSIBLITY OF JUNIOR COACHES TO IDENTIFY EACH SHOOTER'S TALENTS AND GOALS AND ASSIST THEM IN THAT DIRECTION - ISU OR CONVENTIONAL. One discipline does "not fit all".

Moving forward, in your post you indicated that you won your class with a sub-1100 performance and that it was an "empty win". I would, and do, have a differing perspective on performance.

Performance evaluation should not be based only upon scores. Performance should be based upon one's personal goals, along with how you executed during the course of a match. If there are 30mph winds and you shoot a 1099 - is that a bad performance? No. Is winning an overall daily aggregate with a 1098 a bad performance? No. A good performance is overcoming the challenges presented during the course of a rifle match and making your best effort on every shot.

Just some food for thought for others who may read some of the posts and assume that only score matters for a good performance...as that is not the case.

[pdeal]

In WV competitive smallbore is pretty non-existant except in Morgantown and a few other odd pockets. We do get our fair share of kids but we have no real infrastructure in the sport- no club activity other than ours. In PA just an hour north there is smallbore all over the place HS teams, Club teams, leagues, etc. It seems to me it is the shooting social network that keeps it going in people. Where that does not exist it is hard to get going. Years ago indoor ranges were more common and these types shooting social climates I think were more common. There seems to be a better retention rate where juniors are converted into long term shooters. I personally think it is these types of things that really afffect retention. In my case back in the late 70's it was probably perfume and gasoline that put an end to my shooting but I eventually came back.

One objection to the change that I have is that it was made with pretty much no input from active 3p shooters. I wonder how such a change would go over in prone if such a change was made with little or no opportunity to comment.

[mgbdietrich]

Pdeal:

You said the committee's decision was made with almost no shooter input. I don't know who all is on the comittee, but I do know a couple and yes they are ACTIVE shooters in the sport. I have never attended the shooters meetings at Camp Perry but from what I have heard they are poorly attended, if even at all.

I am like Ken, I don't particularily like the decision but I understand the reasoning and we can try this for a couple years. If it flops, we can always go back to the harder target.

I liked Kens post about coaching and how we retain these shooters. I don't know the % juniors that shoot the 3p matches but it has to be over 1/3. If we could only retain some of these shooters after they get out of college or high school we could save this sport. The conventional target will allow people who don't train 5 times a week be competetive. Is this better? Don't know.

[pdeal]

Yes some good points.

[2650 Plus]

Old Shooters from a bygone era set on the board and every now and then they do something really stupid. Once, back when the NRA represented the USA on the ISU governing commity they agred to make the USA leather shooting coat illegel. That was why we ellected Gary Anderson to the NRA Board of directers. That battle went on until the USAS split off and became the representitive to the ISSF. By the way, this was also about the time the Russian rapid fire pistol was ruled illegal. The rumor went around that Gary was a trouble maker and didnt get along with the old guard. They never understood that was the reason we elected hin in the first place. Be careful who you elect to the NRA board as they all get old ,remember their days on the firing lines as the good old days and every few years they try to return to them.

[Hap Rocketto]

Colleagues,

Presently the SB Committee is composed of, to the best of my recollection, Edie Reynolds-the Chair, Dave Cramer, Patti Clark, Paul Vilmer, and Walt Walters-all active smallbore shooters who were at Perry this year. I believe Dom DiBiaso is the final member-but I might be wrong-and he is not a smallbore shooter. H.Q. Moody is the secretary.

As a rule I attend every SB meeting at Perry, but missed this year. It is a shame that more competitors do not attend as sometimes there are more SB committee members than attendees. It was at this meeting that this issue was brought up.

The SB committee, a group of fellow competitors who have the best interests of the sport at heart and who I hold in the highest regard, made the change with some deliberation and I will go along with the change out of the respect that I have for them.

I agree with Morgan and Ken. I am philosophically opposed to the move but, as it is an attempt to raise the numbers, I can go along with it for a couple of years. If it works, great, if not we can always go back to the international target.

Rrpc's comment about the wind is not quite accurate. It is not an issue of reading the wind, the USA vs. GB results from the last few Pershing and Roberts Matches indicate that the US shooters and coaches can read the wind well enough. It is more the issue of being physically pushed about by the wind when shooting in standing and kneeling.


Hap

[PaulB]

Does anyone know whether or not the smallbore prone team matches at Perry will also be changed back to conventional targets (from the current metric)?