Scope and Irons

[EdR]

I started shooting scope around the beginning of july. Most people told me that if you don't have a prescription for corrective lens you will see little to no difference in score and to not neglect irons. I don't practice scope much and just work on irons. I just shot a 3200 prone match- 1575 irons and 1593 scope. Just about every other shoot that shoot both had maybe a 5pt increase. My question is why do my scores differ so much is my vision (I'm only 16 and had perfect vision last time I was tested) or is there some problem?

[Shooter]

Hi: I have the same problem. Lower iron scores than with scope. The main thing that I can think of is that with irons, it is much more difficult to keep the sight picture perfect from shot to shot. With scope, it is much easier to shoot a good shot since you can see easily what you are doing. Also, with a scope, you can hold off or favor a little when the wind changes. This is harder with irons. If you want to discuss this further, contact me at my email at: bawilli@attglobal.net. Hope this helps. Don in Oregon

[Eric U]

I don't have the same problem. I usually shoot about the same scope vs. irons. This is pretty much the case with most top level shooters...until their eyes start going south. If you score is that much better with scope, that tells me you are doing some things wrong with your irons. First thing that comes to mind is sight alignment. Can't really screw that up with a scope. Second is you probably aren't making your sight picture/sight alignment perfect with your irons. You are settling for sub-par shots. In order to pound x's in American prone, or hit 10's in international shooting, you need to have a perfect sight alignment and sight picture.

The only advantage I see with shooting a scope is in dealing with the wind. First of all, you can see the mirage through the scope, and can tell instantly if there is a wind change. Unlike irons where you need to be quick from checking the spotting scope for mirage to when you shoot the shot. Second of all you can simply adjust for wind by aiming over with the scope. With my irons I can accurately shade to about half a scoring ring (international target). With scope it can be to the closest millimeter.

My guess is that you just need more practice with your irons.

Eric

[Guest]

http://www.pilkguns.com/intug.shtml

[Guest]

I meant to say thats advice from a World Record holder
http://www.pilkguns.com/intug.shtml

[Doc Highwall]

It sounds like to me that you do not have your gun set up right for yourself. I cannot stress enough that when you are down in the prone position. Close your eyes, dry fire, operate the bolt several times, then open your eyes and check to see if you are looking straight through the rear aperture with the front sight centered. If you have to move your head up/down or left /right then you know that the cheek piece needs to be adjusted. Also you can check your natural point of aim at the same time.

[Guest]

If you shot a 3200, then you did it on two separate days, right? How much did conditions change? If everone saw a difference, then it was a change in conditions that did it in varying degrees for everyone.

[EdR]

Conditions were pretty close to the same with maybe a little more wind they day I shot scope

[Brent J]

As an earlier poster alluded to, listen to Eric. He's a world class shooter. Early in my shooting career, I suffered the same problem you seem to be having. As I practiced more, I learned more about what a good position was supposed to feel like and how to set a repeatable one up. The scope was masking a lot of my position issues. I decided to focus on training with my irons. I went an entire indoor season shooting only irons. My club's winter league is an any sight league so you can imagine the pounding I took. However, my focus wasn't on winning but on improving. That winter paid tremendous dividends. I truly understood NPA and its importance. The subtleties of head position and cheek pressure became evident. Also, I learned to make my shooting area more efficient. That meant optimizing my spotting scope placement and my ammo placement. By minimizing movements, I didn't fatigue as quickly. With prone shooting, it's such a cummulative effort of repetitive technique. After seeing my scores improve to master level, I put the scope back on and rarely see a dropoff. Now, while once terrified of it, I can confidently shade in certain wind conditions. The holding off of scope is always an advantage and allows me to shoot faster but scorewise, I feel just as content shooting irons. Keep practicing and practicing well. Good luck.

---Brent Jarboe

[Tim Conrad]

As one who's eyes have 'gone south' (great phrase, Eric) I still shoot better at 50 yd/mtr with iron. Don't see motion, break cleaner shots. At 100, scope wins. Mostly because of wind. Trivial to 'chase bullets' with a scope, adjusting for any change you see, where you held the last shot, and where it went. Anywhere on the target. Harder to do that with iron. I suspect you shoot faster with scope. Check your timer if you have one. I shoot a card in about 8 minutes with scope, around 14 iron. Not really a good thing, you can easily over-hold without realizing it. Advice from an old coach of mine: don't shoot scope until you have Expert classification.

Get the fundamentals right first. Sight alignment, or in my terms, head position. You want your head on the stock the same way every time. Same position, same cheek pressure. Make sure you are looking through the center of the rear sight. On a thread a while back, someone claimed head position didn't matter, that has not been my experience working with many shooters over many years. It does matter. Make sure the gun fits, and the sights are set up properly. What size front aperture do you use ? On a standard length barrel, you really shouldn't use less than 3.4 mm. If you have a tube, scale that up by the increase in sight radius. On a windy or overcast day, you may need to adjust up. Make sure you are breaking 'clean' shots, don't jump on the trigger. Dry fire and watch for sight movement.

Not many things can happen in prone. Unfortunately, most of 'em are bad. Get the basics right, hammered into your shot process, so you don't have to think about them in competition. Do that by thinking about them in practice.

[jrmcdaniel]

One non-intuitive aspect of shooting with a scope is to concentrate on the reticle just as one concentrates on the front sight. It is very easy to concentrat on the target but, for the same reasons, the front sight/reticle will help with reducing over-corrections.

Excellent thread!

[Tim Conrad]

The reticle and target should be in focus at the same time. Big advantage for scope. For Iron, I think you should focus on the target. it doesn't move. Bring the sight to the target. Just the opposite of pistol, where you want to focus on the front sight. focused on the target, you are more likely to see changes in the wind.

For us over-the-hill types, an extension tube makes it easier to see both the target and front sight as our eyes cannot change focus as easily as young shooters. Still, primary objective is the target. Outdoors, at 50 yards, I watch the bullet go into the card. (with irons) Can't see it at 100, but at 50, just barely. Much easier with scope.

[Doc Highwall]

I have learned to focus only on the front sight,follow through, and call your shots. Watch how the front sight moves during recoil. It usually ends up pointing at your NPA after the recoil. This with a properly adjusted cheek piece for eye placement for sight alignment.

[EdR]

Thanks for all the help, shot another match- 1575 irons w/ wind and 1589 scope w/ no wind but dropped 9 on a 100yd target (maxed out). I've been working with getting pefect sight alinement. Also I did notice about the time it takes for each 11min for irons, 5 for scope so I might be over holding. thanks

[Doc Highwall]

Remember, you have sight alignment and target alignment. Sight alignment is the most important. You have to set up the rifle to fit you! You can do this at home. Get down in the prone position, with your eyes closed, operate the bolt and dry fire a few times just like in a match. Remember do this with your eyes closed. Now after you dry fire the last shot, remember your eyes are still closed, keeping your head still on the cheek piece open your eyes slowly!!. If you are not looking straight through the rear aperture with the front sight perfectly centered this tells you that the cheek piece is not properly adjusted. Adjust the cheek piece the way it has to go and repeat the above exercise until it is perfect!!! Now if you combine this with a good natural point of aim your scores will go up. This is the cause of those unexplained fliers,improperly adjusted cheek piece.

[Hemmers]

If you have some spare time at the range you can test your position, and your ability to lie down properly (establish a good NPA) with a fun little exercise...

Sight in, then get on aim as you normally would on your target. Make sure you're all lined up properly as you would normally, and that when you breath out, the sights come nicely onto target.. then close your eyes when you take your shots!
If your position is as good as you think it is, breathing out should bring your POA back to the same spot every time. If your position is pants, your shots will be somewhere else.
If they're not in the middle, hopefully they're in a nice grouping, which shows you have a good, steady position but your NPA is wrong and you've been forcing the rifle onto target, whether deliberately or subconsciously. If your position is just plain wrong, they'll just be everywhere!