First of all, a big warning ! Be sure to warm up and stretch your body before attemting any of the following excercises, as they are very stressful to your arm and sholder. The risk of injury is big if you are not well trained. Train smart and listen to your body.
A steady hold is one of the fundamentals in pistol shooting. Here are some exercises that specifically trains steadiness and stamina.
1. Draw a small circle on the backside of a paper target. Put it on a wall at the same hight as a normal target. Stand a few meters from the circle-target. Raise pistol and settle the front sight inside the circle. Now be as relaxed as possible in your whole body, front sight inside the circle.
It will feel funny to breathe while still aiming, but it is possible. Once you get to tired in your sholder/arm and the front sight moves outside the circle its time to take the pistol down, shake your arm and relax for a bit. And after that repeat. Over time, as you get steadier and stronger, you can draw a smaller circle or stand further away to increase the difficulty of the excercise
The key to this excercise is to be as relaxed as possible during the aiming. No dry fire! Just focus on using as little energy as possible to keep your front sight steady inside the circle. Breathe slowly and you may stay inside the ring for about 20-40 seconds. As you improve - longer times are possible.
2. This excercise is done at your shooting range with loaded pistol. Aim your pistol just as you normaly would do. When you have settled into your aiming area close your eyes for about 10-15 seconds. Keep your pistol as steady as possible and be relaxed. Open your eyes and fire the shot in your best possible way. Try to stay within the 9 ring. Yes it will be very difficult and shaky.
3. Aim at a white wall and try to be as steady as possible. No dry fire, just aim. Keep focus on sights while beeing steady. Russian top shooter Vladmir Gontcharow is said to be able to rock steady aim (well almost) for about 90 seconds, and talking to his friends at the same time... :-)
Good luck,
Tobias
Hold excersises
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, David Levene, Spencer, Richard H
Forum rules
If you wish to make a donation to this forum's operation , it would be greatly appreciated.
https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/targettalk?yours=true
If you wish to make a donation to this forum's operation , it would be greatly appreciated.
https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/targettalk?yours=true
-
2650 Plus
Achieving the steady hold
Mr Tobias , thank you ,thank you, thank you. Your post is the first confirmation that training to hold the gun still is a recognized aid to top level shooting. Early on the idea seemed self evident to me and I began training for minimun arc of movement. When you put a steady hold togeather with solid trigger mechanics and adequate effort in perfecting sight allignment.you win matches . I have never been able to identify short cuts or easy ways to accomplist this task with the same degree of sucess you get from dedicated training and consistant practice just prior to a match.
I have a very easy excercise too:
When I sit with my computer and do something that doesn't require me typing constantly on the keyboard I pick up my AP and just hold it out in the air. Not concentrating on it, just holding it straight out.
Extremely simple and after a couple of days it's no problem whatsoever holding the pistol for several minutes before getting tired. That "static" strength is very important for me. It gives me the feeling of beeing in control of a match. I can shoot longer strings of shots before I get tired if that would be needed. I can also abort and restart a shot many times without getting excausted. The firm hold also (as mentioned before by me) the option of releasing a shot whenever I want to and/or make very small changes in stance/grip/etc while still aiming without having to abort the shot.
Ragnar Skanaker was very strong, he used 3kg weights that he would hold for 4-5 minutes. I've seen some of the top russian shooters actually mentally abort a shot during a final and still holding the pistol at the target. After a couple of seconds the shooter would re-focus and release a good shot.
A good hold gives you a clear sighting picture and the option of releasing a smooth and active shot without hesitation.
When I sit with my computer and do something that doesn't require me typing constantly on the keyboard I pick up my AP and just hold it out in the air. Not concentrating on it, just holding it straight out.
Extremely simple and after a couple of days it's no problem whatsoever holding the pistol for several minutes before getting tired. That "static" strength is very important for me. It gives me the feeling of beeing in control of a match. I can shoot longer strings of shots before I get tired if that would be needed. I can also abort and restart a shot many times without getting excausted. The firm hold also (as mentioned before by me) the option of releasing a shot whenever I want to and/or make very small changes in stance/grip/etc while still aiming without having to abort the shot.
Ragnar Skanaker was very strong, he used 3kg weights that he would hold for 4-5 minutes. I've seen some of the top russian shooters actually mentally abort a shot during a final and still holding the pistol at the target. After a couple of seconds the shooter would re-focus and release a good shot.
A good hold gives you a clear sighting picture and the option of releasing a smooth and active shot without hesitation.
-
Steve Swartz
More holding exercises:
- Cut a rectangle out of dark colored paper to correspond to a blank spot the size of a 9.5 ring hold. Place the dark paper over a white background and parctice maintaining sight picure within this area. Index lines (for exact center ten) can be added to the graphic.
- Place 5 target centers (aiming bull) in an "X" pattern on a piece of poster board. Settle into center target and hold while pumping against trigger for 1-2 seconds, then, while maintaining perfect alignment, move to one of the corners and repeat. Move center-corner-center-another corner- etc. until you have held for a couple of seconds under each aiming bull.
- Same drill above but with no centers.
Speaking of Ragnar Skanaker, I shot next to him a while back (he came to USA to shoot in our nationals 5? 6? years ago. Maybe it was one of our selection matches. One of the last matches at Wolf Creek though).
It was amazing! He did everything wrong. Changed grip, stance, etc in between shots. His front sight looked like an epee while he was holding on the target. He was "jittery" and never fired more than three shots with the same stance.
Apparently he was doing at least one thing right- because he shot a pretty good score (at least in the 50s if I remember correctly. Didn't get to shoot in the finals as a non-US citizen IIRC).
He said something to me that really changed my thinking. He said "the front sight doesn't care how I hold my feet." Apparently, as long as sights are aligned and the shot was broken properly, you had nothing to worry about. (Later on I heard a lot of folklore about his training habits . . . )
That made a big impression on me. Usually, when I find myself in trouble (like lately), remembering that point tends to help.
Steve Swartz
- Cut a rectangle out of dark colored paper to correspond to a blank spot the size of a 9.5 ring hold. Place the dark paper over a white background and parctice maintaining sight picure within this area. Index lines (for exact center ten) can be added to the graphic.
- Place 5 target centers (aiming bull) in an "X" pattern on a piece of poster board. Settle into center target and hold while pumping against trigger for 1-2 seconds, then, while maintaining perfect alignment, move to one of the corners and repeat. Move center-corner-center-another corner- etc. until you have held for a couple of seconds under each aiming bull.
- Same drill above but with no centers.
Speaking of Ragnar Skanaker, I shot next to him a while back (he came to USA to shoot in our nationals 5? 6? years ago. Maybe it was one of our selection matches. One of the last matches at Wolf Creek though).
It was amazing! He did everything wrong. Changed grip, stance, etc in between shots. His front sight looked like an epee while he was holding on the target. He was "jittery" and never fired more than three shots with the same stance.
Apparently he was doing at least one thing right- because he shot a pretty good score (at least in the 50s if I remember correctly. Didn't get to shoot in the finals as a non-US citizen IIRC).
He said something to me that really changed my thinking. He said "the front sight doesn't care how I hold my feet." Apparently, as long as sights are aligned and the shot was broken properly, you had nothing to worry about. (Later on I heard a lot of folklore about his training habits . . . )
That made a big impression on me. Usually, when I find myself in trouble (like lately), remembering that point tends to help.
Steve Swartz
-
Steve Swartz
p.s. download Gontcharov's (sp? sorry) Scatt traces and define "rock steady" for me please.
Alas, we do have a lot of folklore, mythology, and "FoaF" type information floating around in our discipline; like anywhere else I suppose.
I have not seen every world class shooter's Scatt/Rika traces certainly. I have seen quite a few, but not all- and many that I have seen are out of date. In 2001 Gontcharov shot a 586 MAP with an 8~9 ring hold; that is available at Scatt website.
Maybe he is holding better now- but 586 with an 8 ring hold suggests something, no? I do know that someones hold always looks a lot better from the stands than from the firing line. Especially when they are shooting tens.
A 9-10 ring hold would definitely be a 600 by now . . . has he changed his shot process from an "align sights, subconscious release" to a "hold ten, conscious release" style of shooting?
I honeslty don't know. He could very well have, if his hold has improved that much. His coach doesn't generally consult with me though . . . !
Steve Swartz
[of course, I have plenty of my own issues to worry about- as has been pointed out in other threads. I will apologize in advance if I don't continue to post in this thread but I think no matter how many different ways I say the same thing won't matter much. Based on my recent performance I have apparently been spending way too much time "thinking and talking about shooting tens" and nowhere near enough time actually shooting them . . . )
Alas, we do have a lot of folklore, mythology, and "FoaF" type information floating around in our discipline; like anywhere else I suppose.
I have not seen every world class shooter's Scatt/Rika traces certainly. I have seen quite a few, but not all- and many that I have seen are out of date. In 2001 Gontcharov shot a 586 MAP with an 8~9 ring hold; that is available at Scatt website.
Maybe he is holding better now- but 586 with an 8 ring hold suggests something, no? I do know that someones hold always looks a lot better from the stands than from the firing line. Especially when they are shooting tens.
A 9-10 ring hold would definitely be a 600 by now . . . has he changed his shot process from an "align sights, subconscious release" to a "hold ten, conscious release" style of shooting?
I honeslty don't know. He could very well have, if his hold has improved that much. His coach doesn't generally consult with me though . . . !
Steve Swartz
[of course, I have plenty of my own issues to worry about- as has been pointed out in other threads. I will apologize in advance if I don't continue to post in this thread but I think no matter how many different ways I say the same thing won't matter much. Based on my recent performance I have apparently been spending way too much time "thinking and talking about shooting tens" and nowhere near enough time actually shooting them . . . )
Question to all of you - what is your definition of hold?
Is it the maximum deviation from the dead center over last 10 seconds? Personally, I define "hold" as % time spent inside 10 ring over 1 second preceding the shot. Can anyone with Scatt installed look at that number for top shooters?
Even though the trace may have wild swings into 8 ring during settle, and when the shooter has no intention of taking the shot, in my opinion there's no need to include it in the definition of "hold".
I don't agree with Steve, although I respect his opinion, that "subconscious release" equates to "subconsciously timing the precise moment of shot". What I beleive Anatoliy Poddubniy means by "subconscious release" is the good QUALITY of the trigger control, not the timing. In fact, his experiments show that if the timing factor is eliminated (i.e. when the trigger is executed by another person via remote control) - the groups shrink with no exceptions.
The bottom line is - timing, whether subconscious or conscious is bad; the only solution not to be dependent on timing is developing a good hold, at least for a second, or however long it takes to release the trigger with no hurry.
Is it the maximum deviation from the dead center over last 10 seconds? Personally, I define "hold" as % time spent inside 10 ring over 1 second preceding the shot. Can anyone with Scatt installed look at that number for top shooters?
Even though the trace may have wild swings into 8 ring during settle, and when the shooter has no intention of taking the shot, in my opinion there's no need to include it in the definition of "hold".
I don't agree with Steve, although I respect his opinion, that "subconscious release" equates to "subconsciously timing the precise moment of shot". What I beleive Anatoliy Poddubniy means by "subconscious release" is the good QUALITY of the trigger control, not the timing. In fact, his experiments show that if the timing factor is eliminated (i.e. when the trigger is executed by another person via remote control) - the groups shrink with no exceptions.
The bottom line is - timing, whether subconscious or conscious is bad; the only solution not to be dependent on timing is developing a good hold, at least for a second, or however long it takes to release the trigger with no hurry.
-
Steve Swartz
Also note that for the subcosncious trigger pull (leading the hold as it movces toward center) to work, you must have:
1) Absolutely consistent, automatic, perfect trigger pull (or your subconscious would have to guess the "lead value" as different for every single shot); and
2) A SMOOTH, CONSISTENT hold (not necessarily a "tight" hold) for the same reasons as above (i.e. consistency); and
3) Absolutely perfect sight alignment- with maladjusted sight alignment, your subconscious has to edstimate and predict *4 dimensions* of variation instead of just 2 (1 & 1/2 actually- vector direction and speed); and
4) Absolute TRUST in the process, as every time you try to consciously move the trigger you are MESSING THE WHOLE THING UP!
Consider:
1) - 3) above are preached by both the "hold" and "align" crowd, right? But for (apparently) different reasons, yes?
IF you define"hold" as perfect alignment, and smooth, consistent (settled) wobble, then we really have no disagreement.
If you define "hold" in terms of how far your wobble strays from the center of the target during your "settled" period, then it indicates that we have a very fundamental disagreement as to what is actually happening during the execution of a "good" vs. a "bad" shot.
That's why I "obsess" over this "hold" issue. Not that we disagree on whether or not a smaller wobble is better*, but whether or not it is relevant to the execution of a proper shot process at all!
Steve Swartz
* Like "Lock Time:" those who think faster lock time is better just have a very, very different understanding of the shot process! Faster lock time is BS. Consistent lock time is critical. Smaller hold is BS. Smooth, consistent hold is critical.
1) Absolutely consistent, automatic, perfect trigger pull (or your subconscious would have to guess the "lead value" as different for every single shot); and
2) A SMOOTH, CONSISTENT hold (not necessarily a "tight" hold) for the same reasons as above (i.e. consistency); and
3) Absolutely perfect sight alignment- with maladjusted sight alignment, your subconscious has to edstimate and predict *4 dimensions* of variation instead of just 2 (1 & 1/2 actually- vector direction and speed); and
4) Absolute TRUST in the process, as every time you try to consciously move the trigger you are MESSING THE WHOLE THING UP!
Consider:
1) - 3) above are preached by both the "hold" and "align" crowd, right? But for (apparently) different reasons, yes?
IF you define"hold" as perfect alignment, and smooth, consistent (settled) wobble, then we really have no disagreement.
If you define "hold" in terms of how far your wobble strays from the center of the target during your "settled" period, then it indicates that we have a very fundamental disagreement as to what is actually happening during the execution of a "good" vs. a "bad" shot.
That's why I "obsess" over this "hold" issue. Not that we disagree on whether or not a smaller wobble is better*, but whether or not it is relevant to the execution of a proper shot process at all!
Steve Swartz
* Like "Lock Time:" those who think faster lock time is better just have a very, very different understanding of the shot process! Faster lock time is BS. Consistent lock time is critical. Smaller hold is BS. Smooth, consistent hold is critical.
-
CR10XGuest
You know, I've tried to investigate, collect, process and assimilate information from a number of shooting and other sports to help improve my game (and life overall).
One of the things I got from Rob Leatham was that you have to try different things in order to find out what works for you. In short, his concept was that if you haven't tried it a different way, then the value of your opinion on any particular issue was very limited and basically you just don't know.
To specifically address one of the earlier comments, almost anything can cause a shot NOT to be a 10. However there are only 2 major things needed to make it a 10, sight alignment and trigger control, hold is a distant third or fourth or whatever. Remember that a thousandths of an inch in sight alignment is a couple of rings out, a thousandths of an inch in wobble is nothing (no matter how bad it looks hovering over the aiming area).
A quote from a really good rifle shooter was "Shoot the first 10 you see coming" and from a pistol shooter, "Shoot when moving towards the center, if you're already there then you're probably too late", while Zins' "let the trigger drive the sights" is always an interesting one. These comments tend to indicate to me that hold is not perfect, and the shooter needs to be aware of the relationship and conditions that indicate the conditions that indicate that the optimum time for the trigger is approaching.
The story goes that many years ago during a particularly windy time at Camp Perry, 2 previous winners were discussing the shooting conditions. One said "Yep, it was so windy that I had to start the trigger out near the nine and eight rings." The other replied that he started the trigger while on the ajoining target just so he could be sure to shoot one his.......
So if we are working on hold without a good trigger control or sight alignment, then we are maximizing a minimum and the time can be better spent elsewhere to achieve improvement at a lower cost of time. If we need a good hold to enable us to work and improve on sight alignment or trigger control, then OK, but I simply let beginning shooters (and even for me during some training sessions) use a rest.
I've seen a number of shooters on this forum start off with "I need the perfect stance, grip, grip pressue, trigger weight, HOLD, whatever" and eventually it appears to me that most of those that continue to improve and get better eventually get to the same place; sight alignment and trigger control (although the language and perceptions are sometimes different).
Thanks for reminding me what's important. You see, it's not really about what others say, it's how I can apply to my shooting to help me get better. So, just something to think about as I start my day.
Cecil Rhodes
One of the things I got from Rob Leatham was that you have to try different things in order to find out what works for you. In short, his concept was that if you haven't tried it a different way, then the value of your opinion on any particular issue was very limited and basically you just don't know.
To specifically address one of the earlier comments, almost anything can cause a shot NOT to be a 10. However there are only 2 major things needed to make it a 10, sight alignment and trigger control, hold is a distant third or fourth or whatever. Remember that a thousandths of an inch in sight alignment is a couple of rings out, a thousandths of an inch in wobble is nothing (no matter how bad it looks hovering over the aiming area).
A quote from a really good rifle shooter was "Shoot the first 10 you see coming" and from a pistol shooter, "Shoot when moving towards the center, if you're already there then you're probably too late", while Zins' "let the trigger drive the sights" is always an interesting one. These comments tend to indicate to me that hold is not perfect, and the shooter needs to be aware of the relationship and conditions that indicate the conditions that indicate that the optimum time for the trigger is approaching.
The story goes that many years ago during a particularly windy time at Camp Perry, 2 previous winners were discussing the shooting conditions. One said "Yep, it was so windy that I had to start the trigger out near the nine and eight rings." The other replied that he started the trigger while on the ajoining target just so he could be sure to shoot one his.......
So if we are working on hold without a good trigger control or sight alignment, then we are maximizing a minimum and the time can be better spent elsewhere to achieve improvement at a lower cost of time. If we need a good hold to enable us to work and improve on sight alignment or trigger control, then OK, but I simply let beginning shooters (and even for me during some training sessions) use a rest.
I've seen a number of shooters on this forum start off with "I need the perfect stance, grip, grip pressue, trigger weight, HOLD, whatever" and eventually it appears to me that most of those that continue to improve and get better eventually get to the same place; sight alignment and trigger control (although the language and perceptions are sometimes different).
Thanks for reminding me what's important. You see, it's not really about what others say, it's how I can apply to my shooting to help me get better. So, just something to think about as I start my day.
Cecil Rhodes
if 'a thousandths of an inch in sight alignment is a couple of rings out', either the rings are VERY small, or the pistol has an unusually short sight radius.
by my quick calculation, a pistol with 200 mm sight radius (about right for 25m pistols) gives a sight radius to target ratio of 125:1 for 25m and 250:1 for 50m
.125" at a 25m target - I should be so lucky
Spencer
by my quick calculation, a pistol with 200 mm sight radius (about right for 25m pistols) gives a sight radius to target ratio of 125:1 for 25m and 250:1 for 50m
.125" at a 25m target - I should be so lucky
Spencer
-
Ed Hall
To paraphrase something Brian Zins recently told the USAF Pistol Team:
If you practice hold without trigger, you are training yourself to hold without shooting.
I also work with the trigger as Steve Swartz has suggested. You don't have to dry fire with hammer fall - simply operate the trigger in a fired mode. Have you discovered yet, what happens if you watch the barrel from the top and apply and release the trigger?
Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/
If you practice hold without trigger, you are training yourself to hold without shooting.
I also work with the trigger as Steve Swartz has suggested. You don't have to dry fire with hammer fall - simply operate the trigger in a fired mode. Have you discovered yet, what happens if you watch the barrel from the top and apply and release the trigger?
Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/
-
CR10XGuest
This 'hold' topic has me confused a little. I have always used "hold" as an umbrella word covering all things resulting from how you "hold" (self defining) the pistol. i.e.
position and setup,
sight alignment,
steadiness in the hand (maintenance of sight alignment),
countering trigger movement,
steadiness on target (the relatively unimportant wobble),
recoil management (strength and firmness)
followthrough and recovery.
position and setup,
sight alignment,
steadiness in the hand (maintenance of sight alignment),
countering trigger movement,
steadiness on target (the relatively unimportant wobble),
recoil management (strength and firmness)
followthrough and recovery.
-
2650 Plus
Hold for how long ?
I need to have my hold at its stillest or best control for a minimum of one second and can usually sustain that control for as much as three seconds. By starting my trigger finger pressure earlier and maintaining steadily increasing pressure I am able to cause the pistol to fire within the period of satisfactory hold ,acctable eye focus and mental concentration on sight allignment. Quoting Bill Blankenship < I know the pistol is going to fire and I'd better get the sights alligned before it does.
-
Guest
Yes!!! I agree!Ed Hall wrote:To paraphrase something Brian Zins recently told the USAF Pistol Team:
If you practice hold without trigger, you are training yourself to hold without shooting.
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/