Time to quit USAS?

[USAS Public Relations]

A MESSAGE FROM USA SHOOTING:

As members of USA Shooting, you are the most critical element of our organizational success. As our mission states, our day-to-day focus is not only to prepare American athletes to win Olympic medals, but to "promote the shooting sports throughout the U.S. and govern the conduct of international shooting in the country."

We recognize that our core membership base of shooting enthusiasts, parents, volunteers and sport supporters are the key to reaching our organizational goal of growing international style shooting sports in the United States. As a result, we want to continue to provide service to those outside of our 200 National Team athletes, as you are the key to expanding the reach of the sport we all love.

After monitoring the discussion regarding membership benefits and dissatisfaction, we understand the importance of responding to our key constituents. Further, we regularly examine various shooting sport focused internet web chats to help us extract feedback on how we can provide better service to our members.

Below are a few key points USA Shooting can address to an understandably concerned shooting community as we continue to transition our services to better support our expansive membership.

• Public Web Site: In this digital age of information, USA Shooting will be launching a new general public web site on Friday, May 4. A formal notification is scheduled for all members on Monday, May 7.

Among other helpful topics, the new public web site offers:

- An athletes section with an interactive calendar and club map, tips for getting started and excelling in the sport, and a weekly athlete blog featuring both Team USA athletes and member competitors from across the nation;
- A competitions section with full access to USAS policies and procedures, the rulebook, match results, national ranking and records updates, and your personal membership information;
- Online access to archived USA Shooting News magazines;
- A frequently asked questions section to help track down the answers you need to key topics; and
- Streaming voice/video, and downloadable photo galleries.

After May 4, please take a moment to visit the various sections of the www.usashooting.org and provide feedback via e-mail on the information posted to media@usashooting.org.

As always, we welcome ways to make the general public web site a resource for members and non-members alike.

• Online Membership Database Web Site: In an effort to better serve the community of USA Shooting, a 24-hour accessible database was created for you, our members. This database allows for direct member control over your personal information; immediate access to match updates, announcements and ranking changes; instantaneous updated member club listings; the most up to date sanctioned event listings; online match registration and payments; and online access to your personal match results.

The internet is an incredible resource that USA Shooting is tapping to better serve this community. As with all web based transitions, we are working out the kinks in the system to perfect its use for you.

We appreciate your patience while we make this shift, and encourage continued feedback so we may further improve our service to you.

A help link has been created in the member database to alleviate login issues during this transition, with assistance provided in a timely manner. Please don’t hesitate to call USA Shooting at 719/866-4670 and allow us to assist you over the phone with login challenges that you may be experiencing.

• Membership Benefits: Membership dues are used to provide the following services to the USA Shooting community.
- Exclusive membership database web site access with immediate match, ranking and personal information updates;
- USA Shooting News magazine with profiles on local clubs, tips on bettering your competition performances, photos from competitions around the nation, and more;
- A redesigned and refocused Quickshots e-mail newsletter delivered to your inbox with exclusive match information and competition updates;
- USA Shooting merchandise discounts with a new web store launching in June 2007;
- USA Shooting e-mail blasts with the latest news from USA Shooting;
- Access to participate in USA Shooting sanctioned matches in your state with scores advancing your national ranking and classifications;
- A photo membership card printable from the internet 24-hours a day;
- Event hotel discounts; and
- A network of sport shooting enthusiasts.

• Sanctioned Matches: Hometown matches are organized and managed by local hosting committees, and we continuously seek member clubs that create a variety of local competitions. USA Shooting continues to encourage you to participate in your hometown club events. If shooters would like scores to be recorded in the system for national ranking or classification purposes, they will need to be an individual member of USA Shooting and participation in sanctioned matches.

In your USA Shooting News magazine, a new section entitled “Club Corner” highlights member clubs across the nation that are offering multiple matches each season for those of you who are passionate about the sport. If you would like to see more matches in your area, contact your local club and encourage them to host more competitions.

• Sanctioning Shooting Leagues: League shooting has been a great resource for individual athletes, but the program has not experienced a high level of participation nationwide. At this time, USA Shooting is reviewing how we can help better organize local leagues to increase involvement and make the program a great fit for both the hosting organization and USA Shooting.

• Customer Service: We are an organization that derives success from our membership base, and, as a result, we are geared toward servicing our customers. USA Shooting hosts member meetings at various events, to include the National Championships where we listened to your ideas and took into consideration your requests. This is evident in our decision to change the rifle and pistol National Championship schedule to a compressed schedule, created more awards to recognize a broader experience base of shooters, conducted clinics with the goal of creating a more enjoyable environment in addition to the competitive atmosphere. We will look forward to similar discussions at this year’s nationals.


Understand that your feedback is important to us. As we want to address and catalog concerns, please send your feedback and suggestions to media@usashooting.org. This will allow us to formally address key issues outside of chat forums and evolve our membership strategy to better service the key constituency.

While we are the National Governing Body for the Olympic shooting sports, the key majority of USA Shooting members are hometown sport pistol, rifle and shotgun enthusiasts. We not only look to pull our National and National Development Teams from the membership base, we look to the majority of our constituents to help further the access and interest in the sport locally and nationally.

If you are not receiving the feedback you seek from the USA Shooting staff, please do not hesitate to contact USA Shooting leadership. Executive Director Robert Mitchell can be reached at Robert.Mitchell@usashooting.org, and Director of Operations Wanda Jewell can be reached at Wanda.Jewell@usashooting.org. Both can be contacted by phone at 719/866-4670.

Thank you for your understanding as we work to provide outstanding service to our membership base, and for your feedback in creating a strong atmosphere for the sport of shooting in the United States.

[Paul Ha]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

As a tax-paying citizen, I have absolutely no desire to stop paying a portion of my taxes even if I were to NOT like NASA or some of their catastropic failures. To me, it is both a means of National pride and hope for the future.

Even though a very low average international pistol shooter, I would like to ask you to please spend a few precious moments of your time to please consider re-aligning some of your thoughts.

Like this email of mine, there are far too many "I"s and "me"s in it ---- and the many glaring mistakes made by them.

I so happened to learn from someone inside the USAS organization that USOC has cut its allocation to the pistol portion of the Olympic training program; and that the USAS pistol programs are now partially "supported" by the funds that should have been totally 'spent' on the rifle (and shotgun?) programs.

I also know that a can of pop from a dispenser is more often than not 75 cents instead of the old "too-expensive-for-my-taste" 50 cents. For the additional $2 per additional event, some of us are saying that it costs way too much to shoot in local USAS matches.

In the '80s, when I was a Conventional pistol shooter, I made many a mistake running the little matches that our club ran. I do not know the relative sizes of CMP nor NRA; but I do know that USAS's staff count is a solid total of 14. I am thinking that some of the other organizations may have more people attending the annual Shot Shows than USAS has on their staff!!! (And, this is NOT a thumb-down on the other organizations --- any pro-gun/pro-shooting org is a friend.)

To a soon-to-retire mechanical engineer, making mistakes has been a life-long good friend, I learn from them; sometimes ever so painfully. BUT, I learn from them. I don't think much of people who don't make mistakes.

I wonder if USAS is more mistake-prone than our own Governement. I certainly WILL NOT choose to be a citizen of any other country because of the many mistakes made by my own Country...... and I DO NOT EXPECT to get whatever my annual dues' (taxes') worth out of USAS nor USA, I am just happy that BOTH of them are here for me to love, to enjoy and to cherish.

Finally, if I were the (anti-gun/anti-shooting?) hacker who did the old USAS web-site in. Wah-la, I did more for my "STUPID" belief than all the other anti-gun orgs combined ---- I started a riot within their ranks and files.

I apologize for taking up your precious time. I wish you all shoot your PBs to make up for my rambling.

Sincerely,
Paul Ha.

[mikeschroeder]

... all of these disciplines under the sport "Shooting" vary widely.

Thank you. Yes, that's exactly the point I was trying to make. The NRA and USAS have very different constituencies and different missions. Consider, e.g., the pre-qual proficiency demonstration required of anyone considering certification as an NRA Basic Pistol Instructor:

Hi Nicole, the list of prerequisites you mention is the list for a training councillor named Wendell Joust. He at least has a good website, but what he lists for prerequisites are his, not for the NRA's. While I can do all of the above for pistol, and have, I didn't have to before I took the class. (O.K., I've never shot anything in Isosceles Triangle position.) He's an NRA training Councillor and can use the name, but www.nratraining.com isn't owned and operated by the NRA.

O.K. Scott, I remember the adds now, if memory serves you were giving discounts on an air pistol also. I thought that you were mentioning an ongoing program.

Mike
Wichita KS

[LadyJayne]

...

[Nicole Hamilton]

Hi Nicole, the list of prerequisites you mention is the list for a training councillor named Wendell Joust. He at least has a good website, but what he lists for prerequisites are his, not for the NRA's.

Oh, my. Isn't that interesting. The TCs at my club were insisting these (and some similar pre-quals for other disciplines) were the NRA requirements and I thought they looked odd because I didn't remember any of this from when I went through my own certifications 7 years ago.

So I sent mail to Wendell (only because I knew he was another fairly active TC in the Seattle area not connected to my club and I didn't want to post something seeming to question my own club on the nrainstructors mailing list.) I asked if these were NRA or club requirements and whether it was proper for a club to impose different requirements than the NRA on an NRA certification.

He responded by saying the requirements are "from the NRA TC Guide. Many TCs are unaware of or do not follow the requirements ..." He then went on to point me at the nratraining.com site, never mentioning this was HIS OWN site! But of course, having just done a whois, I see that's exactly what it is!

Frankly, I'm disappointed. I could say more, but it hardly seems necessary.

[Ray Odle]

Nicole,

While we are giving USAS a breather I'll jump in on the NRA Basic Pistol Instructor subject.

My TC binder doesn't have these requirements as you listed. The pre-course session is much simpler. A requirement to conduct a pre course live fire session was done away with several years ago.

Since the TC is responsible for maintaining a national standard, he is free to add tests. He does not have to rubber stamp his approve for an instructor student.

[Guest]

[quote="PardiniGSP"]What a sad state of affairs. We older, non-Olympics-contending “club” shooters are seen as and treated simply as donors by USAS. And USAS seems to be letting us down at all levels.

Yes, the vast majority (99.99999999%) of us older, non-Olympic club shooters do not have a prayer of even making the National Development Team because there isn't a bona-fide selection procedure for competitors beyond college age. In order to be placed on the National Development Team (older competitors), you must first be 'noticed' by the National Coach, as opposed to younger competitors who qualify by satisying the written 'Selection Procedure'. So, yes, the older shooters are looked upon as donors and not potential international competitors. Have you ever wondered why the population of older competitors has and is dwindling in rifle and pistol? IMO its because they have realized that they were nothing more than donors.

[LadyJayne]

Yes, the vast majority (99.99999999%) of us older, non-Olympic club shooters do not have a prayer of even making the National Development Team because there isn't a bona-fide selection procedure for competitors beyond college age.

There are several members of the U.S. Team that are not of college age... In pistol alone there is Libby Callahan, John McNally; Rifle, Mike Anti, Tom Tamas; Shotgun, Bret Erickson. These are athletes who are still performing and still earned their spot on the squad.

As a member of USA Shooting both you and I have access to the selection procedures:


U.S. SHOOTING TEAM SELECTION PROCEDURES
NOTE: These are excerpts from the selection procedures.

1. The U.S. Shooting Team (USST) will be selected from the top scoring U.S. citizens under USA Shooting Policies and Procedures, Section III, U.S. Shooting Team Selection Procedures and applicable appendix.

2. Athletes selected to the USST must meet International Olympic Committee (IOC), United States Olympic Committee (USOC) and International Sport Shooting Federation (ISSF) eligibility criteria for the Olympic Games, Pan American Games and ISSF sanctioned international competitions. See USA Shooting Policies and Procedures,

4. USST members will be selected on the basis of tryout performance with the exception of “additional athletes” to the World Shooting Championship.

5. All athletes selected to the USST must meet the criteria concerning performance standards under USA Shooting Policies and Procedures, Section VI with the exception of Pan American and Olympic Teams.

7. ... Competitions eligible for consideration as USST selection competitions are the USA Shooting National Championships, the Fall At-Large Selection Match and the Spring Selection Match.

8. Athletes will occupy the USST position(s) they earn.

[Tom Amlie]

Yes, the vast majority (99.99999999%) of us older, non-Olympic club shooters do not have a prayer of even making the National Development Team because there isn't a bona-fide selection procedure for competitors beyond college age.

There are several members of the U.S. Team that are not of college age...
U.S. SHOOTING TEAM SELECTION PROCEDURES
NOTE: These are excerpts from the selection procedures.

1. The U.S. Shooting Team (USST) will be selected from the top scoring U.S. citizens under USA Shooting Policies and Procedures, Section III, U.S. Shooting Team Selection Procedures and applicable appendix.

Not meaning to quibble, but isn't there a distinction between the National Development Team mentioned by "Guest" and the "US Team"?

It's entirely sensible that those who shoot the highest scores get on the US Team to participate in the "Olympic Games, Pan American Games and ISSF sanctioned international competitions." I think Guest (and others) are more concerned with the criteria used to form the National Development Team. The general impression that a reasonable person would get, after reading these posts, is that the NDT is comprised solely of Juniors and recently-ex-juniors, and that the selection process for the NDT is not open and accessible.

For the vast majority of us I don't think that's a real pressing personal concern. I've got a 3 year old child, a job, an old house, a big yard, and a collection of decrepit old cars. I'm lucky to train/shoot 2 hours/week. The National Development Team is pretty much irrelevant to me as a shooter. It does rankle, however, that the NGB operates in a manner which is perceived as less than open and equitable.

[Mike M.]

I think the issue might be better put as transparency and logic.

Transparency in that there needs to be a formal NDT selection process...even if it is the National coach's personal judgement alone. It should be documented.

Logic in that the NDT needs to be run free of the Spandex Sport model of hurrying competitors from the junior program onto the Olympic team. This is shooting, the sport where 60-something competitors routinely trash rivals a third their age. Yes, age needs to be considered in a development team, since you don't want to spend development resources on a shooter who will start to decline right after you make a significant investment, but age is relative. I would consider anyone under 40 to be a good investment...and would consider older shooters if the conditions were right.

That is, of course, on top of putting significant resources into coaching clinics open to all.

[jackh]

With all this discussion going on I realize my ignorance on how international matches are sanctioned USAS and NRA.

Maybe I should ask 'Why?' are there two sanctioning orgs. for different club/local/even state level competitions. Why is there a "PTO" system?

It seems to me you can presently put on an NRA International match or a USAS match. SO why two systems?

Consider this (if it is not like it is anyway. remember I am ignorant on the USAS side):

All matches that are not at the regional-sectional level or higher are totally under NRA Int. system. Also NRA and USAS co-ordinate their rules/classifications to be the same and to be flexible for facility differences at various club venues. For just the shooting part, how different are the NRA Int. and USAS rules? Let's make them the same. (Another thought - The NRA could completely get out of the International match business then USAS could have it all)

USAS runs it's development teams and the US Team. The shooters/teams go to the NRA shoots like everybody else.

Members are invited into the development system by their performance. One of the goals for any shooter at a lower match is to shoot scores worthy of USAS consideration for the teams.

NRA/USAS rules are co-ordinatd, but USAS says nothing about running club/local/state shoots, other than accepting the NRA sanctions/scores.

USAS and NRA both offer co-ordinated resources and support for education and training. But support at the local level for coaching and developing local shooters, with the present state of affairs in the US, is just not going to happen except BY local people.

How many venues are actually qualified to hold Olympic or World Cup competitions in the US?

Biggest drawbacks I see are needing to be a member and pay to both the NRA and USAS. USAS would not necessarily get the low level match fees.
Just how is USAS funded? The only things I know of are memberships, match fees, trinket sales, and sponsors. What else? I hope there is more, much more, but I really have no idea.

Presently being a member of just one does not get you a complete shooting opportunity from beginner to development team. Together, it might work.

/Ramble off

[Russ]

Time to quit USAS?
I'll stay! :)))
Russ
P.S. Just need to update my Olympic Style Pistols for the 2007 USAS National ;)

[seemehaha]

it was always my understanding that the NDT was like a junior national team. it was used to select the top junior shooters who are up and coming but might not quite be ready to be put on the national team. hence "development" in their name. someone correct me if i'm wrong though...

[Tim Conrad]

The NDT is primarily intended for junior and collegiate shooters. They can qualify for it at Nat'l JO's (except 3P air and PPP) and NCAA Rifle championships. (don't know about shotgun) Other spots picked by the nat'l coach.

About half the membership shoots, around 5000 members, 2500 competitors. These numbers haven't changed much in the last few years.

The online membership website has a few problems. National Ranking now includes anyone who has shot even one course of fire in the last 12 months, so is a lot bigger than before. It list shooters by percentage rather than score, so is a little difficult to understand. And has no sanity check. As of 5/6, the top women's air pistol shooter had a 99% average. That's a 396, a couple of points above the world record. Doubtful.

Bottom of men's prone has some really low percentages. Some of this came from a match back east where they entered the maximum score (200) rather than the number of shots (20), so things look rather bad.

Growing pains. Life members don't use "L00xxx" as their member number, but have to use "100xxx" because the folks who did the database couldn't deal with non-numeric values. And, as of last month, score entry was by member number only, with no way to verify that you had the correct member number for the person who shot the match. Make a typo and someone else gets the score.

The old in-house database, which I wrote, did not have these problems. (it did have a few other problems) As I said, growing pains.

I was told that league shooting was out, as we were the only club that ever shot league matches. That seems to conflict with some other posts, and may change. Also, $6/shooter/event entry fee may change as well, but our club folks have not received anything about this. We have had to raise our entry fees as a result, and a lot of our younger shooters have stopped shooting. They don't shoot well, but one of our kids couldn't break 500 in air rifle a year and a half ago, now he shoots around 580. You never know what might happen, so you want as many trigger pullers as you can get. Higher fees don't help.

The USAS main web site has been hacked several times. Without much in the way of backup, so it took a long time to rebuild. Hindsight is always 20-20, but I back up everything. In several places. Paranoia.

[Jose Rossy]

Where oh where did the mainstream idea that guns were competition and sport equipment go?

It went right where it belongs: in the rubbish bin.

Guns are weapons first and foremost. Their utility as sporting implements is a happy by-product, not their reason for being.

I have many guns (most of my rifles) which I use mostly for sport. But I also own several firearms which have absolutely no reason for being other than being a deadly weapon which will be called upon to save my life if I ever find myself under the severe duress of a criminal attack. All my handguns and some of my rifles (those scary black ones) are in that latter category.

I have zero interest in using handguns for traditional shooting competition. One handed bullseye pistol shooting is, both to me and hundreds of thousands of other gun owners, a waste of time and a degradation of the muscle memory necessary to employ said handgun as a life saving tool.

I know this has nothing to do with USAS, but I thought your question deserved an answer.

[Fred Mannis]

I have zero interest in using handguns for traditional shooting competition. One handed bullseye pistol shooting is, both to me and hundreds of thousands of other gun owners, a waste of time and a degradation of the muscle memory necessary to employ said handgun as a life saving tool.

If you spend some time reading Brian Enos' 'Practical Shooting', I think you will find similar techniques to one handed bullseye including focus on the front sight while pulling the trigger straight back without hesitation. Whether it is a waste of time is, of course, a personal matter.

[pgfaini]

Where oh where did the mainstream idea that guns were competition and sport equipment go?

It went right where it belongs: in the rubbish bin.

Guns are weapons first and foremost. Their utility as sporting implements is a happy by-product, not their reason for being.

I have many guns (most of my rifles) which I use mostly for sport. But I also own several firearms which have absolutely no reason for being other than being a deadly weapon which will be called upon to save my life if I ever find myself under the severe duress of a criminal attack. All my handguns and some of my rifles (those scary black ones) are in that latter category.

I have zero interest in using handguns for traditional shooting competition. One handed bullseye pistol shooting is, both to me and hundreds of thousands of other gun owners, a waste of time and a degradation of the muscle memory necessary to employ said handgun as a life saving tool.

I know this has nothing to do with USAS, but I thought your question deserved an answer.

It's people that spout the garbage you've just spouted, that helped put our second amendment rights in the jeopardy they're now in! The majority of people in this country believe guns are good only for killing, and want no part of them. Do you think they'll go out of their way to help us keep our rights?

I'm well aware of the value guns have for self-defense. I used them on my job, and I mean USED THEM in the literal sense! I was also shooting the Mexican Defense Match, back before there was a USPSA or IPSC, and tought combat point-shooting to many of my fellow NYPD brothers. There isn't a room in my home that doesn't have a gun within arms reach.

But I still believe, that if we don't alter the public's perception of firearms back to where it was fifty years ago, when high schools in New York city had rifle teams, and members walked through the halls carrying their Winchester, Stevens and Remington target rifles (sans bolts), and not an eyebrow was raised, it won't be long before we're hiding what guns we are able, from the law.


Paul

[Jose Rossy]

It's people that spout the garbage you've just spouted, that helped put our second amendment rights in the jeopardy they're now in!

Garbage? I'd rather spout that "garbage" than fall in the antis' trap of "guns are for sport only". Look how far that got shooters in the UK and Australia.

The majority of people in this country believe guns are good only for killing, and want no part of them. Do you think they'll go out of their way to help us keep our rights?

You must have slept through every opinion poll released in the days after the VT crime. Hardly a single one ended up in favor of gun control. Were you asleep during Jim Zumbo's virtual stoning too?

I will not debate this further because it derails the thread and no one is going to change my mind on this.

[pgfaini]

Where did I inferr guns were for sport only? My argument was that we have to remove the public's fear of guns so that they will allow their childen to have them. They certainly won't, if they feel they're ONLY good for killing. Children that grow up with guns won't be so easily swayed by the media, to vote to remove them. There's been a large shift of our population from rural areas to cities and suburbs, along with a reduction in hunting as a family experience. The anti's know this and use it to their adavantage.

Each year, at Christmas, our cowboy action shooting club has a Toys for Tots program in conjunction with the Hickory PD, and it's been almost impossible to find a toy gun to donate. Kids are being punished in school for pointng their fingers like, or drawing pictures of a gun, colleges are dropping their rifle teams, and you're quoting surveys?

I'm a charter life member of Grass Roots North Carolina, one of the most sucessful pro gun lobbying groups in this country, and am well aware of the struggle.

Paul

[tleddy]

If you have not been to the USAS website very recently - please do so!! I think is a vast improvement and User Friendly...

I am USAS Life Member #53 dating from 1995. I have a bit of history with USAS and can speak from that perspective as well as the disciplines I have fired.

Has USAS had their problems...absolutely.

Are they the leader in promoting International Shooting...absolutely.

Do they need our continuing support...absolutely.

The fact that they responded on this Forum demonstrates a sincere willingness to work with us, the rank and file shooters.

Give USAS a continuing opportunity to do a great job for the Shooting Sports.

Tillman in Florida (and Master of none of the disciplines below!)

International Bunker Trap - Singles and Doubles (Perrazi MX-10)
Free Pistol (TOZ 35)
Rapid Fire Pistol (Lou Willing Hi-Standard Space Gun - made in 1959)
Standard Pistol (GSP)
CF PISTOL (GILES .38 ca. 1965)
Air Pistol (FWB 65)