Scoring Aids

[R.M.]

Last night at our club league, there was a bit of a discussion about the use of "Eagle Eyes" and whether or not they are allowed for scoring in International matches.
I have participated in matches where they were not allowed, yet have no idea why, nor have I been able to find in the rule book anything about their use.
Can somebody point me to the rule that says they are "Not" allowed.

Thanks
R.M.

[deleted1]

There are people who stick by the old "push and call 'em" (plug) type of gauges. I guess we in the USA have experience with the overlays, "Shot Glasses" or Eagle's eyes which we rely upon as a scoring gauge. Our USA brand of shooting, Bullseye, doesn't allow the use of a plug except by a referee or by the challenge committee in a match---because once plugged that's it you couldn't win a challenge with a million dollar bill. The ISSF rules only allow for plug type gauges to be used.

[David Levene]

6.7.14 - Value of Shots
All bullet holes are scored according to the highest value of the target scoring zone or ring that is touched by that bullet hole. If any part of a scoring ring (demarcation line between the scoring zones) is touched by the bullet, the shot must be scored the higher value of the two scoring zones. Such a hit is determined by whether the bullet hole or a plug gauge inserted in the hole touches any part of the outside edge of the scoring ring.

6.7.14.3
When the accurate use of the plug gauge is made difficult by the close proximity of another bullet hole, the shot value must be determined by means of an engraved gauge of some flat, transparent material, to aid in reconstructing the position of a scoring ring or number of bullet holes which may overlap.

"Eagle Eyes" do not come under either the "plug gauge" or "flat, transparent material" descriptions. They should not therefore be used for determining a hole's value.

[Mike T.]

David,
I don't know what constitutes an "Eagle Eye" in GB but the ones sold here are definitely an "engraved gauge of some flat, transparent material".
Mike T.

[David Levene]

David,
I don't know what constitutes an "Eagle Eye" in GB but the ones sold here are definitely an "engraved gauge of some flat, transparent material".
Mike T.

If that's the case then it can be used in accordance with 6.7.14.3

If however you are just talking about a single shot hole and the ring has not been removed by another shot (or patch on the 25m rapid target) then you cannot use it.

[pgfaini]

I don't see why an Eagle Eye doesn't qualify as a "flat transparent material" gauge. What it does, is replace the flat plastic gauge and loupe or thread counter which was generally used with it, to better examine the target, with a one piece unit.

For those of you not familiar with the Eagle Eye, visualize a clear plastic pill bottle, with a circle of the proper diameter engraved on the bottom, and a magnifying lens attached to the top where the cap would go. It is layed on the target, over the bullet hole, and peering throught the magnifyer, the position is determined.
Paul

[David Levene]

I don't see why an Eagle Eye doesn't qualify as a "flat transparent material" gauge.

Please see my answer to Mike T (I think you and I were typing at the same time).

[pgfaini]

Yes, You're right. But my description of the Eagle Eye, might be of some interest to those living in areas, if any, where they're not available.

I, myself, prefer an outside plug gauge, especially for 10M. I use it when scoring my home training targets. For FP, I use an inside gauge, an aluminum plug with a plastic disk, which magifies, and has a black circle engraved in it. Neither of these are allowed to be used by competitors as per. NRA rules. I use the Eagle Eye when scoring fellow competitors targets in ISSF(USAS PTO) matches.
Paul

[Mike T.]

Perhaps it is helpful to explain how scoring is carried out in Canada at ISSF matches (at least to the National level):
Except for the 25 m Rapid Fire Pistol event and for the Finals, scoring is done by the competitors. A competitor does not score his own target but rather that of another competitor. If a shot hole is close to a scoring ring, the scorer may use an overlay to aid in judging whether the shot cuts or touches the line of higher value. This overlay might be the Eagle Eye scoring aid or it might just be a piece of transparent plastic with an appropriate-sized circle marked on it. When the target has been scored, the shooter may then examine his target and decide whether he agees with the score. The shooter may use an overlay to examine any shot hole he feels has been incorrectly scored. If the shooter does not agee with the scorer's judgement, the shooter may challenge the score. The challenged target is handed over to the jury for final determination of the score. Only at the jury stage is a scoring plug (plug gauge) inserted into the shot hole.
The use of the Eagle Eye greatly reduces the number of challenges that go to the jury. Since, in Canada, we are always hard-pressed to get enough officials to run a match, the reduction in workload that comes with the reduced number of challenges is appreciated.
I gather that this is not how scoring is accomplished at the world level (World Championship, World Cup, Olympics) but the afore-mentioned scenario is how it goes here.
Mike T.

[David Levene]

Mike, I fully appreciate that "local rules" are often used make matches easier to run, and it is right that they should be. That does not mean though that those local rules comply with the ISSF rules.

If the choice is between not running a match because of the lack of suitable staff to run it strictly in accordance with the ISSF rules, or running a match with slightly modified rules then the latter option is obviously preferable. If everyone knows what the rules are when they enter then there can be no complaints.

Here in the UK, whilst internal club matches will often be run with "neighbour scoring", once you get above that level it would be unusual.

[Raymac]

I am the manufacturer of the "Eagle-Eye" scoring gauges......for those not familiar, they are a magnifying scoring gauge which allows for the scoring of the target without plugging the shot hole. They are especially useful for the scoring of postal match targets or competition targets where the shooter is not allowed to plug. The target can be scored without disturbing the hole. This is the only way to score targets with multiple shot holes which are clustered together. Targets can be checked right on the range by the shooter before it is officially scored. They are commonly used at ISSF matches, not for final scoring but used by the scoring staff to determine if the shothole is close enough to be plugged by the jury. This saves a lot of wasted time by the jury plugging targets that really dont need to be. There are a number of suppliers in the USA and we sell them through Intershoot in the UK. We can also supply them directly.

Ray.

[David Levene]

They are commonly used at ISSF matches, not for final scoring but used by the scoring staff to determine if the shothole is close enough to be plugged by the jury. This saves a lot of wasted time by the jury plugging targets that really dont need to be.

There is an obvious difference in attitude. In my opinion, unless a shot is clearly in or out with the naked eye then it must be plugged. If that means that the jury have a bit more work to do then so-be-it.

[Mike T.]

Another aspect is that a challenge costs money ($20 at one of the Canadian National Championships), so I want to be really confident that I think a shot is "in" before I put up my money and challenge the score.
My eyesight is poor enough that I need a magnifying lens to make even a cursory judgement as to whether a shot-hole is close enough to warrant a plugging. Since, if I lose the challenge, I'm out money, I use an overlay and a magnifier to decide if a challenge is warranted. The Eagle Eye merely combines the magnifier and the overlay.
In a 60-shot match, I usually have upwards of five shot-holes that are close enough to a scoring line as to need a judgment as to whether or not they earn the higher score. If my scorer has used an Eagle Eye, and I do too, the number of these doubtful shots (ie ones to be challenged and plugged) typically is reduced to zero, or at most one.
Mike T.

[Slo cat]

Raymac,

I have two of your Eagle Eye scoring gages, one in .221/.178" and the other in .357/.452". They are a great help in finding doubles due to their magnification.

I would like to request that you make a .22 Eagle Eye for NRA pistol competition. NRA pistol rules, 14.3, call for the .22 scoring gage to be .2225" - .2240". A lot of your NRA Eagle Eye users are using your .221" Eagle Eye without realizing that it is showing an engraving that is smaller than the rules call for. I have personally had a scorer use an Eagle Eye on my .22 target and call a shot out, and when I challanged it, the plug called the shot definately in. So I hope you will manufacture a NRA version for scoring .22 pistol.

Best Regards,
Slo cat

[Raymac]

Theoretically it wouldd be possible to make a gauge measuring .223" but the difference is extremly small.....1/1000" at each sided of the ring. We use an optical comparator to get the exact ring size on the scribing tool but even then we have difficulty holding the scribed circle to 1/1000" per side on the plastic surface. I doubt that the human eye could perceive this small ammount??? What do you think?
I have watched international jury people measuring a dozen or so plug gauges, each with his own micrometer, trying to find the largest legal gauge to become "the official gauge for the match". They never agree with one another!!

Ray.