funny shots

[jhawk]

I was shooting yesterday, and during the sighters for the second stage of kneeling, I was attempting to adjust my position as I had a knot of 9's @ 3 o'clock. I shot three more shots that appeared to fall into this hole, and then, I noticed that there was another knot of shots 2" right and about 2 1/2" low down between the 9 and 10 bulls. Three misses :o. Figuring that I really had nothing left to lose, I continued to shoot, and the next shots were in the sighter again. It has been a long time since I have shot a 70 kneeling:). Some have suggested bad ammo, but I would think that the shots would be all over, not in a tight group elsewhere on the target. I don't really know where to look. Bedding, sights... ? If it is ammo, I don't have a problem, because I don't have anymore of it. I guess the only problem that I have now is I don't have any faith in my equipment. Any ideas?

[TWP]

Whenever the kids I coach start complaining about wild shots with no explanation and wanting to blame the ammo or their gun, I drag out the machine rest. Usually their gun groups just fine. Occasionally we find a bedding problem or loose sights.

If you don't have a machine rest I suggest you do some ammo testing from a solid bench or supported prone position.

[seemehaha]

when shots are moving like that my coach always reminds us of our sight alignment. you could have done something consistent for 3 shots, adjusted, then done something slightly different. i'd focus on that first before doing anything major. oh and make sure the sights are tight.

[jhawk]

Thanks for the reply guys, but do you realize how far out these shots were? I couldn't move my head far enough to move these shots that far and still be looking through the sights. And they were all in the same hole. Nice group, but in the white. I did nothing but reload, and the next shot was back in the sighter bull, 3 clicks left, and they were in the center. No more problems, right? I had already shot 40 prone, 40 standing, and 20 kneeling. I also shot and 80 shot NRA match in the morning. All without any problems.
I have been shooting for 33 years, and I have never seen anything like this. I am not one to blame my equipment for my failures, but I think there is something else going on here. I do appreciate your input, and I am not trying to argue with you. I do intend to shoot from a rest as soon as I can, I just thought someone might have had a similar experience. The most disturbing part is that it just appeared and then everything seemed to be OK. Makes me wonder when and if it will happen again.

[Guest]

Is it possible that someone else has fired on your target by mistake?

[jhawk]

Is it possible that someone else has fired on your target by mistake?

Unfortunately, no. The backers lined up.
Thanks for looking though.

[Martin H]

What type of rifle, bedding, ammo etc ?
Martin

[jhawk]

What type of rifle, bedding, ammo etc ?
Martin

The rifle is an Anschutz 1413 that I bought new in 1976. Anschutz sights. It does have a lot of rounds through it. It is glass bedded. It was done by Accuracy International in about 1980. The ammo I was using was Aguila SE. I only had one carton of it, and I was on the last box of that carton. It is the only time that I have shot that ammo, but it seemed fine at 50'. At least until that point.

[hb10mshoter]

I bet your Natural Point of Aim shifted. I've had it happen when i'm shooting tens, then all of the sudden i'll shoot 2 sevens in the same hole. I'll set the gun down and start over: back to normal

[can shooter]

I have a suggetion that worked for me, shooting live i shot wild 9's in prone, like 9.0 or 9.1 . I blamed the gun, light, wind, amo etc. anything but me. I started training on a SCATT and guess what, the same shots, same place, I could no longer blame my equipment, and started focusing on my front sight, shooting rhytm, getting the shots off earlier etc. and my scored improved a lot in a short time,

lesson for myself, it helped me to narrow down what to focus on in training, the gun, ammo etc, was fine to start of with

good luck

Can shooter

[Albert B]

From the info you gave I have to agree that it was probably caused by a shift in NPA. What actions/movements did you perform between the group of shots in the 9 and the flyers way off? Did you use a target carrier going back and forth, or did you use a spotting scope (changeing body position?), did you move your elbow(s)?
After noticing the group of nines, did you go back in position and shouldered the rifle one or more times before taking the shot or did you fire the shot emediately after?
- If it was caused by bedding all shots would be all over the place. If it was the ammo than it would occur more often between the shots.

Albert B
(The Netherlands)

[jhawk]

From the info you gave I have to agree that it was probably caused by a shift in NPA. What actions/movements did you perform between the group of shots in the 9 and the flyers way off? Did you use a target carrier going back and forth, or did you use a spotting scope (changeing body position?), did you move your elbow(s)?
After noticing the group of nines, did you go back in position and shouldered the rifle one or more times before taking the shot or did you fire the shot emediately after?
- If it was caused by bedding all shots would be all over the place. If it was the ammo than it would occur more often between the shots.

Albert B
(The Netherlands)

Albert,
Thanks for your response. I didn't really do anything too differently. I was attempting to adjust my position, as I was certain that that is why the shots were going into that hole. I was using a spotting scope, but all I had to do was turn my head slightly. I was focusing on the sighter bull that I was shooting, so I didn't notice the misses immediately. I don't move the rifle from my shoulder between shots. I did shoot at a bullet hole next to the target to make sure that the next shot was not going to be low and away again. It wasn't, so I shot in the sighter again. The next shot was in the 9 ring at 3 o'clock in the group. I adjusted my sights 3 clicks left, and shot tens. No more problems, except with wondering when it might happen again.
I am having a hard time seeing that great of a shift in NPA as I would think I would see the drift during follow through. You guys might be right, but these shots would not have even hit the target at 50 meters. They were that far out. I think I would have felt or have seen that much movement. I agree that bedding or ammo problems shouldn't group, but I am at a loss as to what was going on.
Thanks also to every one else that has responded.

[ben]

I have followed this thread carefully. I recall that some years ago I had a hobby activity of fixing centre fire sporting rifles whose grouping had gone to pot. Contrary to some of the posters, I found it was common for a bedding fault to group badly, but systematically. In particular, two groups were quite often seen. Examination of the bedding would frequently show two places where the barrel had stable contact, and an alternation of shot grouping could be triggered by simply deliberately displacing the barrel. The fix was of course to re-bed.
I never saw this on a .22 target rifle but the described symptoms fit well to a bedding problem. The fact that the rifle was last bedded in 1980 may well suggest it is time for renewal.
Hope this helps.
ben

[jhawk]

ben,
Thanks for the information. I was hoping that someone would have had a similar experience or had knowledge of someone that did.
I have a couple of other stocks that are bedded to this barreled action, so I can see how it behaves with them as well. I have shot this rifle a bit since I had the funny shots, and had no more problems, but I can try to put pressure on the barrel and see if the zero changes. This leads me to another thought.
Did you ever experiment with different amounts of torque on the action screws? How much is enough, and how much is too much? I'm sure it would be different for center fire rifles, but important for smallbore rifles as well. I had mine torqued to 37 in.lbs. (4.1Nm?).
It still could have been me, and the fact that I have had no more problems might tend to support that, but this is interesting.

[ben]

I ought to elaborate by saying that all the sporter rifles were being used for deer stalking in Scotland and their use was invariably in the wet, which puts very severe demands on bedding in wood. Not helped by the very poor quality of commercial bedding out of the box.
My resolution of the problem was to cut out the wood bedding in its entirety, and re-bed as a pillar bedding job using Devcon Liquid Aluminium to cast the action and the rear of the barrel in situ. Not forgetting a fine coat of grease so that the action could be removed again: otherwise it's in there for good!
As far as the action screws were concerned, I tightened them as tight as I could get them. I never carried out this test myself but I was assured that a well done pillar bedding job did not change zero even with the screws loose.
I never had to rebed a rifle after this treatment and nearly always the rifle grouping capability would improve astonishingly: even to clover leafs at 100 yds.
I realise this does not answer your query directly, but I never saw target rifles as being any different to sporters in that both need stable bedding.
Hope this helps.
Ben

[jhawk]

My stocks are all pillar bedded with Accu Bed made by HS Precision which is essentially the same as you described; epoxy resin impregnated with aluminum. I tested this stock with a dial indicator after it was bedded. (Magnetic base on scope block, dial indicator on stock). I then tightened the action screws, rear first, then front, and then loosened one, and then re-tightened it as I watched the dial indicator. I did this with both screws. There was no perceptible movement throughout this procedure. Unfortunately, I don't have access to this equipment any longer, so I can't check it again. I was under the impression that this type of bedding with this material was more or less a permanent fix. What, short of chipping out could go wrong with the bedding?

[ben]

It seems to me that it is expecting a lot to hope that the bedding remains OK over a period of 27 years. The quality of contact between action and bed is defined at the microscopic level. I would not expect epoxy to have that level of long term dimensional stability. There may be oil contamination, creep of the material, wear due to microslip, and no doubt other possibilities. My judgement would be that if the problem re-appears, then a full rebedding would be order, involving removal of all of the old bedding.
The suggestion by another poster of a thorough bench test was a good one.
Hope this helps.
Ben

[jhawk]

Thanks for your input. I intend to do a bench test as soon as the weather permits here. We are having one last blast of winter, and I don't know of any where that I can shoot 50 meters indoor near me. With two other stocks bedded to this action, I essentially have it re-bedded for testing purposes any way. It should be an interesting test.
Thanks again,
John