Turning targets

[tleddy]

Does anyone on the list know of an inexpensive system for International rapid fire target turners for home use? I am thinking of a 1/2 or 1/4 size.

Tillman

[RobStubbs]

There are 10M versions available - they are fairly common in the UK. There is a custom made version from a guy in Wales plus Haring make a commercial one.

Rob.

[JulianY]

There are 10M versions available - they are fairly common in the UK. There is a custom made version from a guy in Wales plus Haring make a commercial one.

Rob.

Rob

Who's making the welsh ones?

maybe Scott should import if the is real interest.

Julian

[SteveT]

Ed Hall has a few plans for home made turning target systems. It would not be that difficult to link 5 together with a common controller (http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/.

Regards,
Steve T

[RobStubbs]

Rob

Who's making the welsh ones?

maybe Scott should import if the is real interest.

Julian

Julian,
Granville Jones makes them - I think they retail at a little over 200 pounds, maybe 250. I doubt he could cope with serious commercial demand.

Rob.

[Bill A]

If you google "target timers," you can find the website of a fellow in Canada who makes five-bay AP turning target systems. I don't own one, but I did buy a little gizmo that gives audible range commands from him awhile back, and he was easy to deal with and the product, while not cheap, is quite good.

10's,
Bill

[David Levene]

If you google "target timers," you can find the website of a fellow in Canada who makes five-bay AP turning target systems.

I didn't think that the Target Timers systems were actually turners. I thought they were red/green light systems.

[deleted1]

Eggsackly David, Target Timers makes an AP RF target system with red & green lights. With the change to lights why bother with moving targets?---I am sure that a light system whether by electronics or manual is a heck of a lot easier to build. Let's get an electronics genius out there to stick his head into it---it isn't rocket science after all.

[tleddy]

Hmmm...

The 2005 Rules discuss both the light system and turnng targets. My best guess is that at the local and state (maybe) level the Red/Green lights may well be used, since many ranges lack the turning equipment for RF. Most have adequate turners for Duel (is it still called that???).

Once to Regionals and Qualifying tournaments, it is my bet that turning targets will be used, especially at the International level. Reason being, it is more photogenic and exciting (probably easier to score "sliders")

I am sure that there must be some means to objectively note a foul such as early move from the 45 degree ready or a late shot---if any have experience with the set-up, let us know.

I speak out of ignorance, so any that have factual experience, please let us know as well.

[Richard H]

Hmmm...

The 2005 Rules discuss both the light system and turnng targets. My best guess is that at the local and state (maybe) level the Red/Green lights may well be used, since many ranges lack the turning equipment for RF. Most have adequate turners for Duel (is it still called that???).

Once to Regionals and Qualifying tournaments, it is my bet that turning targets will be used, especially at the International level. Reason being, it is more photogenic and exciting (probably easier to score "sliders")

I am sure that there must be some means to objectively note a foul such as early move from the 45 degree ready or a late shot---if any have experience with the set-up, let us know.

I speak out of ignorance, so any that have factual experience, please let us know as well.

International events are shot on lights as they use electronic targets that can't turn , but they do know early or late shoots and don't count them.

Late shots on turning targets are scored with a skid gauge depend on the caliber of the event the oblong hole must fall within a pair of lines on an overlay if its too long it a zero.

[Ed Hall]

Do keep in mind the following ISSF rule:

6.3.17 Standards for 25 m Turning Target Installations

When Electronic Scoring Targets are not used, ranges for 25 m events must be equipped with a target rotating or turning mechanism...

Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/

[tleddy]

6.3.17.15 Standards for 25 m Electronic Scoring Target Systems
6.3.17.15.1 When electronic scoring targets are used the timing equipment will
be set to give the nominal exposure times (see 6.3.17.14) plus 0.1
seconds (which is half the tolerance given in 6.3.17.7.2).
6.3.17.15.2 An "after-time" (the period which is to ensure that shots which would
have been valid "skid-shots" on conventional targets, are also scored
on the electronic targets) will be added at + 0.2 seconds. (Total = 0.3
seconds).


Thank you Ed Hall for calling my attention to that rules section. Quoted above is the following 6.3.17.15 etc. that describes how to determine a "skidder" under the electronic system.

I found out that under 7.4 that only some company in Zurich (SIUS AG) is authorized to provide electronic systems for the finals in various disciplines at the international level. Makes for interesting reading.

I think that, all said and done, one must practice with both turning targets and Red/Green lights to assure success.

Ed, have you seen any studies published on the scores achieved under each system and is there a difference between the turners and the electronic?

Tillman

[Ed Hall]

Hi Tillman,

I'm not versed in the stats area. I only brought up the rule I did, because of some work I've done in providing some inexpensive electronics (and ideas) in the building of red/green light units.

For further, see:

http://www.targettalk.org/viewtopic.php?t=11834

Unfortunately, I never did add anything to my shock sensor description for the unit, to catch a late hit, but I can discuss the concept further if someone is interested. BTW, when time permits, I will probably be updating the circuit I provided for a much smaller do-it-yourself unit that will do more, but will require access to a PIC microcontroller programmer.

Back to the reason I brought up the ISSF rule. If you don't have electronic scoring when using lights, there are pitfalls. I've witnessed some matches where a late shot happened on the second string. But since no one knew which of the two hits was the late one, the officials decided the "fair" way was to discount the lower value hit. This may be fair to the shooter, but what about his opponents? You need to know which hit is which. So, you have to add in more overhead. Either a video recording or a spotter is now needed. And if you're using a shock sensor to determine a late shot you have to move it for shooters firing teft to right vs. right to left - more delay. I suppose you could build two and just switch them at the controller. You should have a spare anyway, in case one gets hit...

Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/

[RobStubbs]

Hi Tillman,
Back to the reason I brought up the ISSF rule. If you don't have electronic scoring when using lights, there are pitfalls. I've witnessed some matches where a late shot happened on the second string. But since no one knew which of the two hits was the late one, the officials decided the "fair" way was to discount the lower value hit. This may be fair to the shooter, but what about his opponents? You need to know which hit is which.

Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/

It's normal practice to eliminate the highest scoring shot under such circumstances, not the lowest. I think ISSF rules actually state that but I haven't got them too hand here at work.

Rob.

[psf32]

Hi Tillman,



Unfortunately, I never did add anything to my shock sensor description for the unit, to catch a late hit, but I can discuss the concept further if someone is interested. BTW, when time permits, I will probably be updating the circuit I provided for a much smaller do-it-yourself unit that will do more, but will require access to a PIC microcontroller programmer.

http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/

Off topic but

Edd if you are still interested in updating your circuit I can put your code on a pic chip for you.

Peter

[David Levene]

It's normal practice to eliminate the highest scoring shot under such circumstances, not the lowest. I think ISSF rules actually state that but I haven't got them too hand here at work.

I'm afraid not Rob. The rules actually say that you score after each completed series.

[RobStubbs]

David,
I meant they remove the highest value shot at the end of the series. In the event above it was two shots fired, obviously in ISSF events that would be 5-shots. With lights, a shot fired fired out of time would be scored as zero, and if the shot cannot be individually identified is it not the highest scoring shot that is discounted ?

Rob.

[David Levene]

With lights, a shot fired fired out of time would be scored as zero, and if the shot cannot be individually identified is it not the highest scoring shot that is discounted ?

With lights you will have electronic scoring, that will identify the late shot.

You were actually refering to Ed's post where he mentioned a late shot in the second series. That is not covered under the ISSF rules as you will only have one series to deal with.

[RobStubbs]

You were actually refering to Ed's post where he mentioned a late shot in the second series. That is not covered under the ISSF rules as you will only have one series to deal with.

Yep, just spotted the word 'series' I missread it as 'shot'. You still never mentioned what shot would be typically annulled though. I appreciate it's not a scenario you'd come across in proper ISSF events but could arise in other types of events (like for example the NSRA when they ran out of turners one year).

Rob.

[David Levene]

You still never mentioned what shot would be typically annulled though. I appreciate it's not a scenario you'd come across in proper ISSF events but could arise in other types of events (like for example the NSRA when they ran out of turners one year).

You've got me on that one Rob, I don't know how they would deal with it, it was not ISSF. I do remember that incident though and was very sorry for the CRO, he was dropped right in the s@!t by bad organisation.

Funnily enough this problem arises in the "Rule 8.20" 5-shot AP events. Although the rules allow for stopwatch timing with voice commands, and specify that late shots should be scored as zeroes, they do not mention how the RO should tell who fired the late shot. It's not too bad for the 5 Target Event, the RO stands a reasonable chance. The Air Pistol Standard Event is a much bigger problem. The rules specify that the match should be shot on stationary, i.e. non-turning, targets. We tend to ignore that rule in the UK and use turners. If you do stick to stationary targets though the RO has to decide who fired the late shot and which the late shot was. I particularly bad piece of rule drafting, which has been pointed out to the ISSF who ignored it, means that there is no guidance on what to do. In those circumstances, if I know who fired the late shot then they will lose the highest value one.