Teaching Kneeling
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Teaching Kneeling
Are there any rifle adjustments (sling etc...) for moving from prone to kneeling?
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B.T.Carstensen
- Posts: 185
- Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2006 10:15 pm
There are all sorts of adjustments you can make from prone, standing and keenling. But it is up to you to find them. If you find something that works great if you don't try again. Thare are no set adjustments for prone, standing or kneeling its different for everyone. Sorry if this was not the answer you wanted but it's true. It's all trial and error.
<>Brian<>
<>Brian<>
I wouldn't agree that it's all trial and error. I'm not a rifle shooter but I understand there are certain settings to start with and take from there. A reasonable 3p coach should be able to help you get set up and later help you fine tune. I would also be suprised if some of the good rifle shooting books didn't have some of that info (including perhaps 'ways of the rifle' ?).
Rob.
Rob.
Wondering how to shoot kneeling with deadly competitive accuracy? Kneeling can be a difficult position to master because it is a very awkward and unnatural body position and requires intense concentration and flawless execution to shoot several 10s consecutively. We’ll start from the ground up. Reverse for lefties.
First off, forget the mat. You don’t need it and it’s going to hinder your position. The scope should be directly to the left of the eye while in position and the ammunition block should be elevated to an accessible spot. Get the legs in position before you pick the rifle up. Place the kneeling roll on the ground at the same angle your right leg will be facing (about 30-40 degrees from the target). Place the right leg on the ground then throw the left leg in front of the body; the left leg should be about 5 degrees to the right of the target and the foot should be slightly forward of the knee when viewed from above. The left foot is not pointed toward the target but is at about the same angle as the right leg, in order to reduce tension in the muscles around the shin. The right leg is relaxed with trousers fully unzipped if used. The right foot is placed on the middle of the kneeling roll and is either perpendicular to the floor or angled slightly forward. The foot makes an angle of approximately 45 degrees with the floor and is centered with the base of the spine; bone-to-bone support effectively connects the spine to the floor.
The right knee makes little contact with the floor, about 10-15 percent of the full body weight. The left foot bears 30 percent, and the right foot / kneeling roll system supports 60 percent. This is simply a recommendation to start with; experiment and adjust to your own liking. As more weight is placed toward the front of the position, the rifle has a more unpredictable base and errors can be greatly magnified.
Now you’ve created the base of the kneeling position: get into position right now in front of the television. Use a rolled up mat or a small bag filled with sand or wood chips if you don’t have a kneeling roll. You don’t need the rifle; just sit in position and stretch the muscles so that they can become adapted to the stress... it’s obvious on the line when a shooter who doesn’t do this exercise is in position: he/she cannot concentrate on the target because there is a block of cramped muscle in the quadriceps region. Practice often so you’re not one of them!
Now it’s time to pick up the rifle. The sling should be the same adjustment or slightly tighter than prone. The sling length and handstop position will determine the final angle of the left arm. If the rifle is adjustable, the stock should be shorter than for prone. The left elbow is placed slightly forward of the knee; the rear of the elbow joint should come into contact with the front of the knee. The forearm should come to rest at approximately the same angle as the left upper leg, and just like in prone there should be no muscle use at all in the left arm or leg. The left hand is pushed against the handstop and the rifle rests on the thumb ball joint; the fingers dangle naturally without gripping the rifle.
The right arm serves the same purpose as in prone except that it receives no support from the floor. Its only job is to pull the trigger. It does not support the rifle in any way. The right hand should make full but very light contact with the stock or pistol grip with an emphasis that it is not being used to push or pull the rifle in any direction. The index finger makes contact with the trigger only and trigger sequence is similar to prone.
The head is upright on the cheek piece with the eyes looking directly forward. If sight blocks are not used, the head may have to be inclined forward slightly to meet the rear sight. As in prone, the left eye is covered with a blinder and both eyes are kept open. If the scope is positioned in a way that requires movement of the head, be sure that the head always returns to the same spot.
To adjust Natural Point of Aim, rotate the entire body with the foot / kneeling roll system as the pivot point. Don’t just move the left leg. It’s much easier to do this on the floor rather than on a mat. To change bulls horizontally, move the entire position to the left or right; again, it’s easiest to shoot squarely at the target. To adjust vertically, you’ll have to change certain aspects of the position: to go up you can move your left foot backward, move the left hand and handstop backward, tighten the sling, make the rifle stock longer, or make the angle from your right foot to the ground larger. To go down, reverse all of these movements. It is easiest and most effective to adjust the left foot and right foot. If you’ve done a combination of all of these and are continuing to do so, the target height is probably wrong. If you must deviate from the natural position, don’t go very far.
General rule #1: This is one position that can get a beginner frustrated very quickly. As the rifle darts back and forth horizontally across the bull, the impatient shooter waits until the bull flies into the sight picture then quickly pulls the trigger, sending the round who-knows-where. Don’t waste the rounds. If you find yourself doing this, don’t even shoot. Instead, stay in position and do twenty dry fires in exactly the same manner as you would if you were actually shooting. Don’t rush the dry fires; you want to see what you are doing wrong! If the rifle goes back and forth horizontally, you either have excessive weight toward the forward leg or are using muscle. To get yelled at for using muscles, see general rule #2.
General rule #2: Stop using the muscles! There is a reason women and men compete equally, and that’s because strength has nothing to do with it. Bone-to-bone support will guarantee a solid position. Shut off the muscles, especially in the left arm and leg. You may have gotten away with it in prone but you’ll suffer the consequences in kneeling. Try it this way: don’t even look at the target because it doesn’t matter where you’re aiming, as long as it’s somewhere around the target. Now pretend you’re about to fall asleep; do you use muscles when you’re falling asleep? No, you’re a floppy fish on the bed. Now take that same idea and adapt it to the kneeling position. Shut off the muscles, but don’t change the position by slumping. Biggest problem spots are the left lower and upper arm and left lower and upper leg. Google a picture of the human body with muscle groups and visualize those muscles while in position. If you can do this you are being spatially aware of your body, something that is the key to a solid position.
General Rule #3: Experiment. Stop at nothing to find the optimum position for your body. If the target hangs too low, don’t try to aim lower than your natural position... change the target height! If you don’t like what you are doing, find something specific to change and a specific way to change it. Use pictures as a guide, but not as a rule.
See you on the line.
Dan M.
This post was written by my son, one of junior students at brp.org.
Hope it helps.
Mike Mc.
First off, forget the mat. You don’t need it and it’s going to hinder your position. The scope should be directly to the left of the eye while in position and the ammunition block should be elevated to an accessible spot. Get the legs in position before you pick the rifle up. Place the kneeling roll on the ground at the same angle your right leg will be facing (about 30-40 degrees from the target). Place the right leg on the ground then throw the left leg in front of the body; the left leg should be about 5 degrees to the right of the target and the foot should be slightly forward of the knee when viewed from above. The left foot is not pointed toward the target but is at about the same angle as the right leg, in order to reduce tension in the muscles around the shin. The right leg is relaxed with trousers fully unzipped if used. The right foot is placed on the middle of the kneeling roll and is either perpendicular to the floor or angled slightly forward. The foot makes an angle of approximately 45 degrees with the floor and is centered with the base of the spine; bone-to-bone support effectively connects the spine to the floor.
The right knee makes little contact with the floor, about 10-15 percent of the full body weight. The left foot bears 30 percent, and the right foot / kneeling roll system supports 60 percent. This is simply a recommendation to start with; experiment and adjust to your own liking. As more weight is placed toward the front of the position, the rifle has a more unpredictable base and errors can be greatly magnified.
Now you’ve created the base of the kneeling position: get into position right now in front of the television. Use a rolled up mat or a small bag filled with sand or wood chips if you don’t have a kneeling roll. You don’t need the rifle; just sit in position and stretch the muscles so that they can become adapted to the stress... it’s obvious on the line when a shooter who doesn’t do this exercise is in position: he/she cannot concentrate on the target because there is a block of cramped muscle in the quadriceps region. Practice often so you’re not one of them!
Now it’s time to pick up the rifle. The sling should be the same adjustment or slightly tighter than prone. The sling length and handstop position will determine the final angle of the left arm. If the rifle is adjustable, the stock should be shorter than for prone. The left elbow is placed slightly forward of the knee; the rear of the elbow joint should come into contact with the front of the knee. The forearm should come to rest at approximately the same angle as the left upper leg, and just like in prone there should be no muscle use at all in the left arm or leg. The left hand is pushed against the handstop and the rifle rests on the thumb ball joint; the fingers dangle naturally without gripping the rifle.
The right arm serves the same purpose as in prone except that it receives no support from the floor. Its only job is to pull the trigger. It does not support the rifle in any way. The right hand should make full but very light contact with the stock or pistol grip with an emphasis that it is not being used to push or pull the rifle in any direction. The index finger makes contact with the trigger only and trigger sequence is similar to prone.
The head is upright on the cheek piece with the eyes looking directly forward. If sight blocks are not used, the head may have to be inclined forward slightly to meet the rear sight. As in prone, the left eye is covered with a blinder and both eyes are kept open. If the scope is positioned in a way that requires movement of the head, be sure that the head always returns to the same spot.
To adjust Natural Point of Aim, rotate the entire body with the foot / kneeling roll system as the pivot point. Don’t just move the left leg. It’s much easier to do this on the floor rather than on a mat. To change bulls horizontally, move the entire position to the left or right; again, it’s easiest to shoot squarely at the target. To adjust vertically, you’ll have to change certain aspects of the position: to go up you can move your left foot backward, move the left hand and handstop backward, tighten the sling, make the rifle stock longer, or make the angle from your right foot to the ground larger. To go down, reverse all of these movements. It is easiest and most effective to adjust the left foot and right foot. If you’ve done a combination of all of these and are continuing to do so, the target height is probably wrong. If you must deviate from the natural position, don’t go very far.
General rule #1: This is one position that can get a beginner frustrated very quickly. As the rifle darts back and forth horizontally across the bull, the impatient shooter waits until the bull flies into the sight picture then quickly pulls the trigger, sending the round who-knows-where. Don’t waste the rounds. If you find yourself doing this, don’t even shoot. Instead, stay in position and do twenty dry fires in exactly the same manner as you would if you were actually shooting. Don’t rush the dry fires; you want to see what you are doing wrong! If the rifle goes back and forth horizontally, you either have excessive weight toward the forward leg or are using muscle. To get yelled at for using muscles, see general rule #2.
General rule #2: Stop using the muscles! There is a reason women and men compete equally, and that’s because strength has nothing to do with it. Bone-to-bone support will guarantee a solid position. Shut off the muscles, especially in the left arm and leg. You may have gotten away with it in prone but you’ll suffer the consequences in kneeling. Try it this way: don’t even look at the target because it doesn’t matter where you’re aiming, as long as it’s somewhere around the target. Now pretend you’re about to fall asleep; do you use muscles when you’re falling asleep? No, you’re a floppy fish on the bed. Now take that same idea and adapt it to the kneeling position. Shut off the muscles, but don’t change the position by slumping. Biggest problem spots are the left lower and upper arm and left lower and upper leg. Google a picture of the human body with muscle groups and visualize those muscles while in position. If you can do this you are being spatially aware of your body, something that is the key to a solid position.
General Rule #3: Experiment. Stop at nothing to find the optimum position for your body. If the target hangs too low, don’t try to aim lower than your natural position... change the target height! If you don’t like what you are doing, find something specific to change and a specific way to change it. Use pictures as a guide, but not as a rule.
See you on the line.
Dan M.
This post was written by my son, one of junior students at brp.org.
Hope it helps.
Mike Mc.
I don't want to sound like a spoilsport but you cannot change the target height. The height is governed by the rules you shoot under not what you fancy.n1heu wrote:General Rule #3: Experiment. Stop at nothing to find the optimum position for your body. If the target hangs too low, don’t try to aim lower than your natural position... change the target height! If you don’t like what you are doing, find something specific to change and a specific way to change it. Use pictures as a guide, but not as a rule.
See you on the line.
Dan M.
This post was written by my son, one of junior students at brp.org.
Hope it helps.
Mike Mc.
Rob.
Not a spoil sport at all. Most of the matches and ranges we shoot the targets are left at the same height as prone for both kneeling and prone. Some ranges allow for an adjustment. If the target is in fact set to ISSF regs it is nearly ideal for the position. The point is don't shoot extreme up or down hill if it can be avoided. This applies to all positions.
mike
mike
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B.T.Carstensen
- Posts: 185
- Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2006 10:15 pm
Your right I should have said that there is alot of trial and error involved in finding the correct setting for your rifle.RobStubbs wrote:I wouldn't agree that it's all trial and error. I'm not a rifle shooter but I understand there are certain settings to start with and take from there. A reasonable 3p coach should be able to help you get set up and later help you fine tune. I would also be suprised if some of the good rifle shooting books didn't have some of that info (including perhaps 'ways of the rifle' ?).
Rob.
<>Brian<>