First Pistol Purchase - Any Ideas?

[LadyJayne]

So, my mother and I are planning to buy pistols next year. I understand that I need to go through a class first - which I will do in January.

Any ideas on where to go and find the kind of pistol we may want? Something for protection that we both can handle. I don't want one with a hammer... I don't want one from a pawn shop... But, at the same time, I don't know what I want.

Any starter pistol suggestions? Something we can keep for years? (at the risk of sounding too much like a girl) Something kinda cute?

[Steve Swartz]

Like buying computer systems, the key issues are "what are you going to use it for, and how are you going to use it?"

For example:

- Will the firearm be carried?
- If so, how? (purse/holster/etc)
- When stored, will it be stored "ready?"
- What percentage of time will it be kept in "ready" status?
- How much practice time are you willing to dedicate to proficiency?
- Etc. . . .

That being said, and making the following assumptions on my part:

- Carried in purse among bits of tissue and wads of gum
- Must always be in "ready"status; even tucked under a pillow at night
- Will practice once for certification course and then maybe once a year
- Must be able to familiarize with low power load, but have a proven one shot stop" load for use

If so, the following recommendation leaps to the top of the list:

Get a Smith & Wesson .357 mag revolver with shrouded hammer and fixed sights (double action only) with compensated 2-3" barrel. Probably stainless. They used to make a series called the "LadySmith" a few years back in 5-shot configuration that came with smaller grip sizes for women..

You can practice with low-power .38 specials, and load with .357s (Federal 125 grain Hydra-Shoks) for defensive use.

Unless you are both willing to train frequently (at least one hour a month), semi-autos are probably not the best bet . . .

Steve Swartz

[randy1952]

If your buying a pistol for protection the first question you must answer. Are you willing to kill somebody that is willing to do you bodily harm without hestiation? This was the first question put to us when I took my first defensive pistol class. If can't answer that question in the affirmative then it is a bad idea.

If you decide you can then you should train on a regular basis regardless if it is a revolver or semi auto. The best thing you can learn is to learn what your surronding environment looks like to avoid putting yourself in a bad situation. The other thing you need to learn is to practice getting access to gun in a quick and safe manner. You need to practice different circumstances where you may have to defend yourself. These are just some of the things you need to learn. Remember that you are buying a pistol for self protection and as such you need to be serious and practice as though your like is worth something.

You are accountable for every round you shot out of your pistol and if you miss your target and it hits something you didn't intend on hitting then you are still responsible. I don't mean to sound negative, but you need to be aware of these things because to many people think they can just unload their pistol on someone and think their will be no consequences. I have talked to alot of older people who think they can justifiyably shot someone if he turns his back and starts to run. You will have a harder time convincing the police and a jury if the assaliant in question has holes in his back. There is also the old saying "Better to tried by a jury of six then to be carried out by six."

[Pradeep5]

I believe the exception to the "don't shoot someone in the back" advice is when you are in your own home, during a home invasion. In your home (at least in the US), you can do as you wish.

IIRC Texas enacted some legislation recently where you can shoot to kill if someone has stolen property from your house and is running down the street etc.

[Fred Mannis]

I agree with Randy's suggestions. Required reading for all my students was Massad F. Ayoob's book "In the Gravest Extreme. The Role of the Firearm in Personal Protection". I believe it is still available on Amazon.

Do some research; do some reading; don't simply take the advice of the clerk at the local gun shop. This is a serious decison and requires serious thought.

[JulianY]

Steve is perfectly correct in his asking questions, the biggest problem is that from the information you have given it would appear thy both you and your mother have limited firearms experience. Have you ever shot a pistol before? To be honest what ever is said will probably change after you course because then you will know more, especially what you like/find comfortable.

Steve is correct when he reached for revolvers thinking simplicity, however I am going to partly disagree with Steve ( sorry Steve but you know I have the best intentions). How do you feel with technical things, lets be crude I take it you can change a car tire. I am not trying to be funny but automatic have more moving part an require a little more care, not much but a little bit more non the less. Something that is not looked after is more that likely to become a liability, and could end up with the worst case scenario.

In my experience with first time shooters, the first surprise it the weight which is a controlling factor for many ladies. Please don’t miss understand me , we have several lady shooters an our club and almost without exception they shoot better than men at the same level – no ego !

You say “no hammers”. This remark interests me, for guns that a carries this is almost a must ( some one will flame me for that remark) , it leads me to believe you know more than you are letting on.

Revolver ha an inherent problem with them – grip. For some people gripping a revolver is a natural thing, for others, including me, its completely alien. Yes this is personal and you will have to find the answer to this one you self, by trying different guns. You and you mother could have different preferences!

Allow me to explain my pistol of choice and lets see where we go from there. First off I choose an automatic, primarily because the grip style suits my hand and me. The potential maintance is not a problem, because it’s well within my capabilities. Hell lets face it they teach grunts to do this! I prefer to have extra shots than extra power, with extra shots, a second shot is always possible. Don’t forget that under stress it can be difficult to hit a barn door! Modern 9mm pistols car 15+ rounds compare to a revolvers 6 ( 5 if you load it safely) or a colt 45’s 7+1

So With that in mine my choice is a Walther P99 ( Yes James Bond fame!) The P99 is taking European security services by storm, many are replacing their Glocks and Wather P5’s with this model. Like Glock many of the parts ( not the barrel ) are “plastic” composites which reduces both rust and weight. The magazine capacity is 16+1 ( I understand this is limited in the US to 10+1) . It takes about 300 rounds to get the gun to run smooth but after that is is a remarkable accurate piece of equipment. Indecently the grip was designed by Cezar Morini who has designed more grips for more Olympic gold winning guns than any one in history.

If you are worried about the stopping power of 9mm. it is also available on .40 S&M which according to FBI tests .40 does give it a marginal edge but at a cost of less magazine capacity and more recoil.

Lastly I should point you to the compact version of this pistol. Which whilst it has a smaller magazine capacity ( but still the legal limit in the US 10 +1) is only 18oz instead of 25oz

FYI this pistol is also sold by Smith & Wesson as the SW99 and the SW990L.

As to where to buy from, for my $0.02 I would go direct to the vendor and ask for a reputable dealer. I will leave the local to recommend further on that one

So those are my thoughts. Lets talk more after you course.

Finnaly take this up as a sport, chances are you will get a lot more out of it if you do. You have no idea of the private gloat i get when i put all my round in the 9 ring with my air pistol and the guy in next the lane is making swiss cheese out his card with his 357 ego buster.

Best wishes

J

[Fred Mannis]

Julian,
We are getting far afield from Olympic Style Shooting, but I must make a few comments:

Modern 9mm pistols car 15+ rounds compare to a revolvers 6 ( 5 if you load it safely) or a colt 45’s 7+1

Modern double action revolvers with a six round capacity can be safely loaded with six rounds. Perhaps you were thinking of the old single action Colt?

( I understand this is limited in the US to 10+1)

The law limiting pistols to 10 round magazines has expired. There is no longer any limitation on magazine capacity.

The P99 is taking European security services by storm,

Perhaps. But I am sure you are aware of the considerable discussion around different pistol mechanisms - DA on first round, then SA on subsequent rounds, various types of safety and decocking mechanisms, etc. The preference of many police agencies in the U.S. is for double action only (DAO) designs which do not require a safety or decocking mechanism. They are as simple to operate as a revolver. I personally like DAO design typified by the Kahr pistols and by the new S&W M&P model.

Finally, some of us like to shoot big bore pistols and I consider PPC, IPSC and IDPA as part of the sport of pistol shooting and as challenging as precison shooting.

Regards,
Fred

[Can we stick to ISSF?]

I have always loved the Target Talk forum precisely because it is refreshingly free from the discussion of the defensive use of firearms and gun politics.

The TT rules and regulations states "This Forum is established and maintained to allow shooters interested in the Olympic shooting disciplines to ask or offer advice depending on each one's needs and skills..." and "This site is not about hunting animals or self-defense... "

There are dozens and dozens of websites and forums dedicated to "concealed carry" pistols, laws and techniques. Is it too much to ask that we keep this forum dedicated to Olympic-style ISSF sport shooting?

[Jose Rossy]

So, my mother and I are planning to buy pistols next year. I understand that I need to go through a class first

Your understanding is incorrect.

You do not need to go through any kind of class or training to purchase any kind of firearm in the state of Colorado.

You show up at a gun dealer, fill out BATF Form 4473, the dealer call in your info to the National Crime Information Center where an instant background check is performed and, if you do not fit any of the categories of a prohibited person, you pay for your firearm and go home with it.

That's it.

What's even better is that in Colorado, as in the overwhelming majority of states, you can purchase any firearm from a private individual without anything other than an exchange of money or trade for other goods. Yes, that is legal.

And why don't you want one from a pawn shop? Any pawn shop selling firearms is a Federal Firearms Dealer licensed by the Bureau of Alcohol Tobbaco and Firearms and has to comply with the reams of laws and regulations controlling the trade. There is nothing shady or illegal about guns sold by pawn shops. Pawn shops long ago stopped being clearinghouses for stolen merchanside and in most cases actively cooperate with the police to curtail the fencing of stolen goods.

I bought my first rifle from a pawn shop in Wichita.

I have family in Fort Collins and I have travelled to Colorado with firearms multiple times, so I have more than a passing knowledge of their firearm laws.

[Jose Rossy]

I believe the exception to the "don't shoot someone in the back" advice is when you are in your own home, during a home invasion. In your home (at least in the US), you can do as you wish.

Sir, please refrain from giving legal advice on matters about which you are not 100% certain.

You never know if the person reading your erroneous information will not bother to check any further.

The United States has 54 sets of firearm laws. One for each state, one at the Federal level, one for the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, one for the US Virgin Islands, and one for the Territory of Guam. They are not all the same, and what is legal in one state can land you in prison for a very long time in another.

[randy1952]

I believe the exception to the "don't shoot someone in the back" advice is when you are in your own home, during a home invasion. In your home (at least in the US), you can do as you wish.

IIRC Texas enacted some legislation recently where you can shoot to kill if someone has stolen property from your house and is running down the street etc.

The other lesson a person must learn is know the laws of the state and city you reside and there only a few states that allow you to shot at somebody whose back is turned to you. Most states in which you are allowed to defend yourself and particulariy the one I live in you can only use deadly force if your life or another person is endangered. Once the bad guy is retreating you cannot lawfully use deadly force, because once they are retreating there is no longer a threat posed to life and limb. To do so otherwise can land you in trouble with the law at least in my state. Again, you should become familiar with the laws in your state and city. The laws are not uniform and vary a great deal.

[JulianY]

Fred,

Yes you are correct that we are steaming away from Olympic shooting and for that reason I thought very hard before even answering. My reasons for doing so were that many people come to this sport for a variety of different reasons. When ever people do arrive on out door step, regardless of reason, I believe that is our responsibility as ambassadors of our sport to be courteous, give gentle guidance, encouragement and hopefully increase the size of our community of responsible shooters.

Sorry I was not thinking or the single action colt. Yes I am well aware that there are revolvers designed with sufficient safety to carry a live round “under the hammer” so to speak, but I stand by the old safety rule of not doing so – at least until you are sufficiently competent to know otherwise. As regards (DAO) designs which do not require a safety or decocking mechanism etc yes, yes, yes, but we are getting ahead of out selves. And with respect to PPC IPC etc that are all valid disciplines.

So my advice to these two ladies stands. Take the training course in Jan and having done so decide what it is you want to do. I would recommend taking this up as a sport, It can take a couple of year (or more) to reach your potential and there is a great deal of satisfaction to be had trying. Should you decide that target shooting particularly Olympic style shooting is you thing, then you will be more that welcome hear. Best of luck.

So lets get back to Olympic Shooting and I shall go and do my penance of 200 dry fires;)

J

[LadyJayne]

I have always loved the Target Talk forum precisely because it is refreshingly free from the discussion of the defensive use of firearms and gun politics.

Is it too much to ask that we keep this forum dedicated to Olympic-style ISSF sport shooting?

As a member of this forum who has been watching and reading for the past few months, and as a person working in the SPORT of shooting, I wanted to talk to people who consider all angles on pistols.

I could have just as easily reached out to the shooting forums that talk about Self Defense and the right pistol to have at home, but I wanted to look to the people I consider experts (those who shoot regularly and have a passion for the SPORT) to find my answer.

I suppose I should have taken this up with someone else, but I trust you (you being those in this forum).

With that said, thank you to all of you for your advice. I will use what I have learned and take this discussion elsewhere.

Enjoy the holiday.

[Bill Poole]

Lady Jayne

if you are who I think you are... contact me when you are down visiting grandma here during the holidays, and we'll take you out and let you shoot lots and lots of different guns (both ISSF style and the other kind) and maybe get an inkling of what is the best choice for you.

Most of us here are very jealous that we don't have a shooting range within walking distance of where we work like you do ;)

Bill Poole

[Wee Hooker]

Forget semi autos unless you and mom are willing to drill with your particular choice regularly ( untill it's operation becomes second nature.). Go with the simplicity and reliability of a revolver. No mags,releases, safeties , slides or jams to worry about. Just pull the trigger and it goes bang. Every time. The S&W 640 should fit your needs perfectly. Hammerless, potent, enough capacity of non combat use, built like a tank, compact and you can get a whole range of comfortable grips for it. A 357 revolvolver also gives you the option to practice with/carry lower powered (and priced) .38 special ammo if you don't like the recoil of the 357. Another advantage over the semi's.
FWIW, I own 'allot" of guns but still keep preffer a revolver for home and personal protection.

hth

[tiroX]

I just want to chime in and say great thread! I have the same question as ladyjayne, but I don't really want to bother to register at other forums, and since there seems to be alot of people here that know what they're talking about here, I decided to register here only (primarily for the AR /AP info). Thanks!, however if someone can point us, to other resources that would be great too.

[Nicole Hamilton]

I believe the exception to the "don't shoot someone in the back" advice is when you are in your own home, during a home invasion. In your home (at least in the US), you can do as you wish.

This is not correct. In general, lethal force can only be used to defend the innocent against imminent and unavoidable threat of death or grave bodily injury.

All of these conditions are important. The requirement that lethal force can only be used to defend the innocent means that you can't start a fight, then use a gun to end it. If you see a fight in progress in an alley and you don't know who's innocent, do NOT pull out a gun. For all you know, the apparent "bad guy" could be an undercover cop. In practice, what this means is the only time you might use a gun to defend someone other than yourself would be if it's a loved one in danger.

The requirement that the threat be imminent means, e.g., if someone says he's going to get a gun and kill you but he does not yet have that gun, you cannot shoot him. Imminent means the threat is happening NOW and if you don't do something NOW you will die, not sometime in the future. Also, as soon as the threat ends, your use of lethal force must end. If you shoot an attacker and they are now unconscious, you can't fire a few more shots just to be sure. This is why anyone who uses a gun in self-defense is well-advised to state to the police that they shot "to stop the threat" and should NEVER say they shot "to kill the attacker." This is also why (contrary to Pradeep's claim) you cannot shoot someone who's retreating and has their back turned; clearly they are no longer a threat.

The requirement that the threat is unavoidable means you have a duty to retreat if, by doing so, you could end the threat. In some parts of the US, there is no duty to retreat, either in your home (under what's called the "castle doctrine") or at all, but check your local laws. (I suspect Pradeep was confused by this "no duty to retreat" rule in certain parts of the US.) Also, considering that if you do use a gun in self-defense that you will likely face huge legal bills defending your decision and public criticism as a "killer," if you can get away without shooting, that's almost certainly the smart choice.

Finally, the requirement that the threat be of death or grave bodily injury means you cannot use deadly force to stop someone from stealing your car or your television set. Grave bodily injury does however include rape.

[ChrisA]

The first thing to understand is that if you have a gun and you use it ineffectivly or indecisively you will likely be dead in seconds. The reason is that once the "bad guy" sees that you are going for a gun he has one option "kill her before she can use it." And you have a problem: You can't use the gun before the "bad guy" makes a life threatening move. You can't pull a gun on someone because "they might threaten you" they have to actually do something. So there is your problem. The other guy will get to make the first move and you MUST react correctly and very quickly in a stressful situation. and you get only one chance to get it right. The only way to make this work is to have enough training and practice that actions become automatic and you don't have to sit and think.

The attacker always has the advantage of being able to choose the time and place of the attack, the defender has to be ready 24x7. It is much harder to be a defender

I'm not say'ing "don't do it." Just realize the level of on-going lifetime commitment

As for a gun? If at home I'd say a 12 gage shotgun. But take classes (not the use of the plural) and let the experts tell you.

[Richard H]

I agree with ChrisA's last statement "let the experts tell you", because there are lot of inaccuraies in the rest of what he said.

[Guest]

The law of torts (personal injury/wrongful death) does not require us to be perfect, just reasonable.

In most states, a person defending themselves in their own home is given far greater latitude than one on the street or other public place.

Take a class, get very comfortable with the firearm of your choice. know the law and above all make reasonable decisions.