It seems that a fair number of Pardini HP/HPE owners have problems getting a load to group well. Some claim that the .32 HBWC is inherently inaccurate (tipping being the most prevalent problem), but I'm not sure I buy that argument - yet.
Based upon my own experience with both a HP and a HPE, I think the issue is directly related to 1) bullet diameter vs. bore diameter and 2) bullet hardness. Of lesser importance is velocity, crimp, etc.
What I would like to see is a running list of everyone's successful loads for your HP or HPE showing your bore diameter (measured either by slugging the barrel or by measuring the diameter at the muzzle with a caliper) and the diameter of the bullet that groups best in your pistol. If you choose to include more info on your load, e.g. powder, case, primer, etc., that would be fine.
By building this list, I'm hoping that what we will all learn is exactly what relationship of bullet diameter to bore diameter is truly important. If that can be identified, then future owners of these pistols might be saved a good bit of time and trouble trying to zero in on the answer.
As I think about it, I suppose it would also be meaningful to see if the same kind of trend comes out of other manufacturers .32 pistols.
Here's my response:
Pistol - Barrel Diameter - Bullet Diameter - Load Info
Pardini HP - .311 - .314 - Lapua 98 gr (factory load)
Note: I pulled a factory Lapua bullet, and it measured .312 to .313. The .314 answer came directly from the Lapua factory. Perhaps the loading, crimping and pulling process squeezed it down? Also, my experience is the Lapua bullets are much harder than either the Speers or Hornadys. Not as hard as a hard cast bullet, but much harder than the other two swaged bullets.
Looking forward to seeing your replies.
Stan
.32 S&W Long and Pardini HP/HPE survey
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I have been loading for the HP, ( no method of measuring bore diam.) with Remington Brass; Federal SP Primers;Meister 100 gr DEWC---0.312 bullet diameter; 1.2 grains of VitaVhouri NN310. This load is good up to 25 Metres (yards) w/o experiencing any major tipping. When I shot Bullseye I used 1.4 grain of VV N310 and did experience some minor tipping at 50 yards.
Last edited by deleted1 on Sat Jul 22, 2006 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Bob,Bob Riegl wrote:I have been loading for the HP with Remington Brass; Federal SP Primers;Meister 100 gr DEWC; 1.2 grains of VitaVhouri NN310. This load is good up to 25 Metres (yards) w/o experiencing any major tipping. When I shot Bullseye I used 1.4 grain of VV N310 and did experience some minor tipping.
Thanks for the info, but most importantly, what is your pistol's bore diameter and what is the diameter of your bullets?
Stan
Rob,RobStubbs wrote:Stan,
I have only just bought my HP and it has to reside outside of the UK. I shot magtech with it and it appeared to group well although I gather the ammo is prone to throwing odd rounds. Don't know any of the measurements and wouldn't be able to find out for quite some time.
Rob.
My HP used to do the same thing - shoot very well and then start throwing keyholed rounds in the one or two ring. What a great way to ruin both your score and your confidence. BTW, this happened with everything I tried (and I tried a lot of options) except for factory Lapua 98 gr rounds.
Stan
Excellent thread.
Lapua/Norma factory load is absolutly the best for Pardini HP IMHO. Perfect round holes and perfect precision.
Magtech is also good. But I have had a keyhole in the 5 ring in a competition, since then I do not trust Magtech anymore. I have no idea why it happened, recoil was normal and everything felt right except a wide hole way out in the white... Maybe it happedend because Magtech .32 WC ammo is so dirty - it leaves a black goo everywhere and makes moving parts almost stuck after just two CFP matches. That's not good!
1.5grain vv310. Federal 100 primer and H&N bullet seams to work best for me. (But not as good as Lapua/Norma factory loads) I have only tried H&N .312". Perhaps other diameters will work better. More testing is needed.
Lapua/Norma factory load is absolutly the best for Pardini HP IMHO. Perfect round holes and perfect precision.
Magtech is also good. But I have had a keyhole in the 5 ring in a competition, since then I do not trust Magtech anymore. I have no idea why it happened, recoil was normal and everything felt right except a wide hole way out in the white... Maybe it happedend because Magtech .32 WC ammo is so dirty - it leaves a black goo everywhere and makes moving parts almost stuck after just two CFP matches. That's not good!
1.5grain vv310. Federal 100 primer and H&N bullet seams to work best for me. (But not as good as Lapua/Norma factory loads) I have only tried H&N .312". Perhaps other diameters will work better. More testing is needed.
Axel,Axel wrote:Excellent thread.
1.5grain vv310. Federal 100 primer and H&N bullet seams to work best for me. (But not as good as Lapua/Norma factory loads) I have only tried H&N .312". Perhaps other diameters will work better. More testing is needed.
Just for the record, what is your pistol's bore diameter?
Thanks,
Stan
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Slinger
I have purchased a Pardini HP earlier this year. I have about gone crazy trying to find "the load". I was shooting H&N in both .312 and . 314, Speers 98 grain was a total flop, and I also had troubles with Lapuas 83 grain as well. My loads started at 1.2 of VV N310,and went uo to 1.7 grains of VV N310. I would get one in 12 rounds that would "tip" or just plain keyhole out in the 3 ring some where. The only common denominator was that ALL the bulltes I was trying were HBWC. i finally tried a BBWC with great results, hence I know have my HBWC for sale. I shoot a 100 grain BBWC over 1.3 grains of V V N310. I am some what baffeled by the fact that the pistol simply will not shoot a HBWC without "tipping" as it does. I also want to mention that the BBWC I now use are slightly harder also. Regarding bullet diameter, I contacted Larry Carter and was told that .314 was the way to go. I am very interested to hear what kind of experiences others have had , that I may find that hidden secret.
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Fred
I don't have any specific technical information to contribute, since I don't (yet) reload. However I wanted to mention that there has been a good bit of discussion about this on the Bullseye List over the last couple of years. The consensus seemed to be that it was not just a question of bullet diameter compared to bore diameter, but also a question of barrel twist rate.
Dave Wilson makes custom .32 barrels from Douglas (?) blanks, that are sized slightly narrower than the factory barrels, and have faster twist rates. He has made them for Walther GSPs and Hammerli SP20s, and maybe others. He has a wealth of Ransom Rest data and test targets from 50 yards, and his barrels consistently group much better than factory barrels at that distance. Interestingly enough, though, I believe he still gets some of his best results with Lapua factory ammo. I would not presume to put his contact information up here, but he should be reachable through the Bullseye List.
There is also a business in western Canada that does basically the same thing, and they have a website, although I can't remember the name right now. I think they specialize in GSP barrels, and their performance data were impressive also.
I think the theory behind the success of the faster twist, is being able to achieve sufficient bullet rotational speed (for stabilization out to 50 yards) without having to drive it super fast. And of course the factory Lapua is a very "snappy" load, so that might be one reason (but not the only one) for its good performance. By the way, I have gotten the next best (to Lapua) performance from PMC factory ammo. I pulled some PMC bullets and they measured .313-.314, whereas Federal - which often keyholed at 50 FEET - measured .309-.311. Unfortunately, it's getting harder to find PMC.
Sorry for the long ramble.
FredB
Dave Wilson makes custom .32 barrels from Douglas (?) blanks, that are sized slightly narrower than the factory barrels, and have faster twist rates. He has made them for Walther GSPs and Hammerli SP20s, and maybe others. He has a wealth of Ransom Rest data and test targets from 50 yards, and his barrels consistently group much better than factory barrels at that distance. Interestingly enough, though, I believe he still gets some of his best results with Lapua factory ammo. I would not presume to put his contact information up here, but he should be reachable through the Bullseye List.
There is also a business in western Canada that does basically the same thing, and they have a website, although I can't remember the name right now. I think they specialize in GSP barrels, and their performance data were impressive also.
I think the theory behind the success of the faster twist, is being able to achieve sufficient bullet rotational speed (for stabilization out to 50 yards) without having to drive it super fast. And of course the factory Lapua is a very "snappy" load, so that might be one reason (but not the only one) for its good performance. By the way, I have gotten the next best (to Lapua) performance from PMC factory ammo. I pulled some PMC bullets and they measured .313-.314, whereas Federal - which often keyholed at 50 FEET - measured .309-.311. Unfortunately, it's getting harder to find PMC.
Sorry for the long ramble.
FredB
My 2 cents
Stan,
Just thought I'd throw in my experiences, although it really doesn't answer your questions regarding handloads. I have no idea what my bore diameter is, but I guess you could slug it if you are curious enough.
As you know, I've been shooting a Benelli for about 2 years now, using only factory loads. My observations and opinions, in no particular order:
In general, my experiences have been similar to everyone else. It's tough to get a load to shoot well at 50 yards. Most factory loads show consistently inconsistent performance, that is, mostly good groups with occasional flyers of varying displacement and evidence of an unstable flight path.
Lapua, in both 98 and the new 83 grain flavor is by far the best performer. Oddly enough, I just tested the 83 grain this morning after buying some last week at Perry. With me just whacking away from the bench, they all stayed well within a bullseye 10 ring, with most in the X ring vicinity. It was 'snappy' just like the 98 grain load, though less so.
Magtech is my second favorite. Soft recoil and generally reliable performance with just the occasional flyer (more on that later).
PMC also performs well, especially at 25 meters, but with more weird impact holes than Magtech. 4 out of 5 will group fantastic, and then 1 oddball zings way out there especially at 50 yards. Due to it's relatively low cost, however, I still use it for 25 yard/meter practice.
Fiocchi is no longer in my good graces, as you may have heard from USAS Nationals. It's performance had always been at least on par with PMC and most times as good as the Magtech. Since I was short of Magtech, I took a case of Fiocchi to Nationals. About 20% of the rounds landed in the white or failed to impact the target at all. I used every different box I had in my bag with the same results. Yes, I know I should have tested ammo from a new case before going. Perhaps it was just a case that got banged up in shipping, but it sure left a sour taste.
As for Federal, well, I'm sure it has a place somewhere in the universe but it's nowhere near my Benelli. I'm pretty sure they all leave the barrel in the same direction, I just don't know where they all end up.
It seemed that with generally favorable results marked by symptoms of occasional zingers, there must be an intermittent force or cause of some kind that is introduced into the equation. To find out, I tediously checked the chamber and barrel every few rounds, before and after the mysterious keyholes. As best as I could fathom, small chunks or smears of lead were being deposited occasionally at the start of the rifling. If the chunk built up enough, the next fired round seemed to pick it up on the way out. This added weight on the edge of the projectile probably made it out of balance enough to cause unstable flight. After the keyhole shot, it seemed the bore was clear again and 'normal' shots countinued for a while before another flyer appeared.
For a solution, I resorted to cleaning the barrel with a 9mm snake after every string of slow fire and between other stages in as effort to remove any stray lead deposits in the barrel before they stuck to another projectile. Although it costs me a new snake every match (I can't bring myself to reuse them and possibly deposit the same crap back into the barrel) and has never completely eliminated flyers, it seems to reduce their number by about 90%. Should have had the snake at Nationals, dang.
If I were to handload, I think I might try a copper plated bullet to keep the lead build up from occuring. I have had great success loading .45 ACP with these, unfortunately, Rainier Ballistics doesn't produce one in .32 size. Is there another manufacturer?
Just my 2 cents. I'll shoot 83gr Lapua at 50 yards ($28 per box, ouch...) with Magtech at 25yds and during most practices.
Thanks,
Keith
Just thought I'd throw in my experiences, although it really doesn't answer your questions regarding handloads. I have no idea what my bore diameter is, but I guess you could slug it if you are curious enough.
As you know, I've been shooting a Benelli for about 2 years now, using only factory loads. My observations and opinions, in no particular order:
In general, my experiences have been similar to everyone else. It's tough to get a load to shoot well at 50 yards. Most factory loads show consistently inconsistent performance, that is, mostly good groups with occasional flyers of varying displacement and evidence of an unstable flight path.
Lapua, in both 98 and the new 83 grain flavor is by far the best performer. Oddly enough, I just tested the 83 grain this morning after buying some last week at Perry. With me just whacking away from the bench, they all stayed well within a bullseye 10 ring, with most in the X ring vicinity. It was 'snappy' just like the 98 grain load, though less so.
Magtech is my second favorite. Soft recoil and generally reliable performance with just the occasional flyer (more on that later).
PMC also performs well, especially at 25 meters, but with more weird impact holes than Magtech. 4 out of 5 will group fantastic, and then 1 oddball zings way out there especially at 50 yards. Due to it's relatively low cost, however, I still use it for 25 yard/meter practice.
Fiocchi is no longer in my good graces, as you may have heard from USAS Nationals. It's performance had always been at least on par with PMC and most times as good as the Magtech. Since I was short of Magtech, I took a case of Fiocchi to Nationals. About 20% of the rounds landed in the white or failed to impact the target at all. I used every different box I had in my bag with the same results. Yes, I know I should have tested ammo from a new case before going. Perhaps it was just a case that got banged up in shipping, but it sure left a sour taste.
As for Federal, well, I'm sure it has a place somewhere in the universe but it's nowhere near my Benelli. I'm pretty sure they all leave the barrel in the same direction, I just don't know where they all end up.
It seemed that with generally favorable results marked by symptoms of occasional zingers, there must be an intermittent force or cause of some kind that is introduced into the equation. To find out, I tediously checked the chamber and barrel every few rounds, before and after the mysterious keyholes. As best as I could fathom, small chunks or smears of lead were being deposited occasionally at the start of the rifling. If the chunk built up enough, the next fired round seemed to pick it up on the way out. This added weight on the edge of the projectile probably made it out of balance enough to cause unstable flight. After the keyhole shot, it seemed the bore was clear again and 'normal' shots countinued for a while before another flyer appeared.
For a solution, I resorted to cleaning the barrel with a 9mm snake after every string of slow fire and between other stages in as effort to remove any stray lead deposits in the barrel before they stuck to another projectile. Although it costs me a new snake every match (I can't bring myself to reuse them and possibly deposit the same crap back into the barrel) and has never completely eliminated flyers, it seems to reduce their number by about 90%. Should have had the snake at Nationals, dang.
If I were to handload, I think I might try a copper plated bullet to keep the lead build up from occuring. I have had great success loading .45 ACP with these, unfortunately, Rainier Ballistics doesn't produce one in .32 size. Is there another manufacturer?
Just my 2 cents. I'll shoot 83gr Lapua at 50 yards ($28 per box, ouch...) with Magtech at 25yds and during most practices.
Thanks,
Keith
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Nicole Hamilton
- Posts: 477
- Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2006 1:17 pm
- Location: Redmond, Washington, USA
- Contact:
I don't reload and I've only shot my HP at short distances and I don't have a way of measuring either bullet or bore diameters, so the only comment of any value I can make is to pass along Don Nygord's recommendation when he sold me the gun.
Don used to insist that the best ammo for the HP was factory Fiocchi lead wad cutters with 100 gr bullets. And that's what he sold. Again, I have only limited experience so there isn't really any value in my claim that it worked for me (though in fact it did.) But there probably is some value in knowing this is what Don said.
Don used to insist that the best ammo for the HP was factory Fiocchi lead wad cutters with 100 gr bullets. And that's what he sold. Again, I have only limited experience so there isn't really any value in my claim that it worked for me (though in fact it did.) But there probably is some value in knowing this is what Don said.
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Slinger
K5TANGOS said he would like to see a copper plated bullet for 32S&W long. I have not tried these as of yet, but here you are
http--www.berrysmgg.com
http--www.berrysmgg.com
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Slinger
K5TANGOS said he would like to see a copper plated bullet for 32S&W long. I have not tried these as of yet, but here you are
http--www.berrysmg.com
http--www.berrysmg.com
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Tycho
I've no idea about the barrel diameter, but we've known for a long time that most italian pistols (FAS, Pardini, Benelli) have tighter barrels than, say, Hammerlis or Walthers. My basic load for anything built south of the alps would be a .313 H&N 90grs with 1.4grs VV N310 behind it - you got to push the lighter bullets a bit faster (The .314 100grs I load for other people do perfectly well with 1.2grs VV N310, although 1.4 will give you the same load as the factory Hirtenberger ammo, the stuff of choice for many CISM teams), or they won't stabilize. That load shoots nice groups in most guns (even in my 280) and doesn't recoil too much. I never liked (I shot a Pardini for some years) .314 bullets in italian barrels - disproportionate "climb rate" in the recoil movement. We've rarely had problems with tipping, but then we're using a long cylindrical expander to minimize damage to the base of the HBWC by getting it absolutely straight seated. I've heard from some long time reloaders that this can be a source of big problems, and who can look into his seating die?
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Guest
Can you post the link again? Neither one work for me.Slinger wrote:K5TANGOS said he would like to see a copper plated bullet for 32S&W long. I have not tried these as of yet, but here you are
http--www.berrysmg.com
Keith,
Thanks for posting the link. It reminds me of a conversation I had some time ago about using jacketed bullets in a .32 pistol like the Pardini. The person I was talking with flipped out when I mentioned the possibility of using a jacketed bullet. Seems they were very concerned about premature barrel wear. What does everyone here think?
Here a thought for you. Would you rather:
1. Have a long barrel life shooting swaged bullets that inexplicably throw keyholed rounds in the 1 ring or...
2. Shoot cloverleaf groups with plated bullets and have to replace the barrel after several years?
Stan
Thanks for posting the link. It reminds me of a conversation I had some time ago about using jacketed bullets in a .32 pistol like the Pardini. The person I was talking with flipped out when I mentioned the possibility of using a jacketed bullet. Seems they were very concerned about premature barrel wear. What does everyone here think?
Here a thought for you. Would you rather:
1. Have a long barrel life shooting swaged bullets that inexplicably throw keyholed rounds in the 1 ring or...
2. Shoot cloverleaf groups with plated bullets and have to replace the barrel after several years?
Stan
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David Levene
- Posts: 5617
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:49 pm
- Location: Ruislip, UK
IPshooter wrote:It reminds me of a conversation I had some time ago about using jacketed bullets in a .32 pistol like the Pardini. The person I was talking with flipped out when I mentioned the possibility of using a jacketed bullet.
You might not want to use them in an ISSF match Stan.
Rule 8.4.6
All projectiles used must be made of lead or similar soft material only. Jacketed projectiles are not permitted. The Jury may take samples from the shooter’s ammunition for checking.
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Slinger
I am curious, has any one else quit using HBWC as I did? I know that when I went to a BBWC my problems of tilting, yawing, and key holes went away. Is it possible that my Pardini, and others as well just dont like a HBWC style bullet?I feel that low powder charges:1.2 and 1.3 grains could not possibly "blow the base off", so why do they insist on not flying well? I know that a bunch of people had this trouble with the Walther GSP. That pistol had a 1 in 23 twist rate I believe. It is my understanding that the Pardini has a 1 in 16 twist rate, so I have been told by Larry Carter(no data in the manual regarding that ) at least that I saw. Is that still not fast enough to stabalize that bullet?