AIR PISTOLS HAVE NO RECOIL

[PETE S]

of any significance.

Ilooked up some information in the NRA Firearms Fact Book.

Page 219 is a table of recoil information.


Bullet Charge Velcocity Gun wt. Recoil energy
.22lr 40 grs. 1.1 grs 800 fps 0.5 lbs 0.8 ft-lbs
45 185 grs 7.4 grs 940 fps 2.4 lbs 5.5 ft-lbs

H&N rifle pellets weigh 8.18 grs. or 1/4 that of a .22lr.
The charge is lower but can not really be estimated.

Now I know of a fellow named Brian Zins, and other that precede him including Eric Buljung that shoot some pretty good groups witha 45 at 50 yards.

Yes, the discharge of a pellet from an AP does impart force in the opposite direction as it travels down the barrel. Newtonian physics does apply. But I hold that the value of recoil (and there are several measures) is so small as to be of no consequence.

If you see the AP move on discharge, YOU moved it, not the pellet discharge!

[Greg Derr]

So if you are correct then an AP suspended by a wire fired via remote will not move? You have $ in your wallet? THere are many more physics issues at play than you may think. Have you taken into account the rotational forces of the barrel twist? Greg

[Steve Swartz]

Not that I ever get involved in "equipment disputes" (!?) but this one borders on a technique issue (that's my excuse for electronic vs. mechanical trigger bloviations as well) . . .

I agree with Pete that Newtonian physics are involved; I agree with Greg that an AP suspended with remote mechanical trigger activation will definitely show a jerking motion from the trigger release (mechanical "let off").

O.K., I also agree with both guys that there will be a conservation of momentum here and F still equals ma no matter how you cut or slice it.

The interesting part is Pete's (somewhat adamant) position that the "recoil effect" is trivial compared to say trigger let-off or even hand squigglies of some type.

I think we can all agree that gross movements are quite possible with improper technique? Show of hands out there- have you ever slapped at the trigger like a professional hockey player trying to hit a moving puck? O.K., discount that kind of stuff.

For a "good" technique, how big of a factor *is* recoil, really?

As a marketing tool, Steyrs recoil-shock-buffer-absorption-dampener-doohickie seems to have quite a few acolytes. But as a practical matter?

Is the force generated by "recoil" at least as great as the force generated by letoff on a mechanical trigger?

Assume standard weight pellets, standard velocity charge in a typical air pistol. Liekwise assume a parallel to bore centerline trigger force application and a typical mechanical trigger letoff weight.

Which force imbalance would cause more "muzzle flip?"

Steve Swartz

[Note one thing Pete is right about- irrespective of the actual answer it is apparently quite possible to manage either effect consistently enough to shoot a ten or two. So neither is likely to be an issue at all from a practical standpoint.]

[James Hurr]

Bullet Charge Velcocity Gun wt. Recoil energy
.22lr 40 grs. 1.1 grs 800 fps 0.5 lbs 0.8 ft-lbs
45 185 grs 7.4 grs 940 fps 2.4 lbs 5.5 ft-lbs

Theses figures don't mean anything by themselves. 'Recoil energy' is dependent on the mass of the firearm as much as the mass and velocity of the projectile.
Not sure where these facts come from, do you have a link?

The mass and velocity of the propellant are also a consideration, which is why compensators work and howitzers have muzzle brakes - which reduce recoil by directing the propellant gas sideways.

.22 certainly recoils, 1/4 of something significant is likely to be greater than zero.
Air pistol velocity is typically half that of a .22 so the 1/4 figure is also wrong.

Air pistols don't recoil much but they do recoil. With a competition AP if you see the sights move the chances are you did move them.

[RobStubbs]

Air pistol velocity is typically half that of a .22 so the 1/4 figure is also wrong.

Air pistols don't recoil much but they do recoil. With a competition AP if you see the sights move the chances are you did move them.

The velocity is about half as is the mass of the pellet (or less) - that makes recoil 1/4 or less.

Anyway that's just pedantics. The fact is that there will be some recoil, it just won't be very much.

Rob.

[Lanning R. Hochhauser]

Not to muddy the waters with anecdotal evidence instead of empirical data, when I dry-fire my Pardini K2 air/Nygord compensator and do it right, the sights just don't move. When I fire a dead-nuts deep 10 the sights move a little.

Is this the hammer strike on the valve or the release of gas on pellet exit??

Not remembering clearly what happened when I test-fired an LP 10, what is the preceived difference between a dry-fire and a "perfect" shot release with this pistol??

[Tycho]

The Steyr doesn't move at all. When I shoot it against the 162EI, the Steyr feels like nothing is happening. The Morini looks like nothing is happening, but one can definitely feel the bullet leaving the barrel. There is no perceived upward movement, because of the compensator (I use a SAM M10 comp on the Morini, not the factory pseudo-comp), but there is sort of a recoil. I find it a bit easier to call the shots with the 162 because of this, and although the comparison may seem a bit preposterous, I remember an interview with Nestruyev where he said something about having modified the absorber of the LP10 to get just a bit of feedback.

[aurorapolice02_11]

Of course the pistol will have a slight movement. To the rear. The equations validate that argument. However, I still believe an AP does not move as much as people think.

AN AIR PISTOL BEING FIRED, WILL NOT DISRUPT THE SIGHTS...provided it is not a spring action type ; )

I have made this argument before. When living at the Olympic Training Center, I had this argument with Erich. He told me the gun will not move and if it does, it was my fault.

He had me shoot an entire tin of pellets into the backstop, only working on trigger control and looking at the front sight directly. Not aiming the gun downrange. I'll be damned...the smoother the trigger release was, the less movement of the front sight. If the trigger control was smooth, the front sight moved no more than my natural hold.

As far as your arguments Steve. You talk about a gun suspeded in air or something to that effect. Well, that's not how we shoot air pistols. Also, the continued argument of mechanical vs. electronic triggers...it does not matter what trigger you have. If you train with it for long enough with anything you will be proficient with it. I seriously do not think an electronic triiger would have made me shoot any better than I did. Just like anything else these days, companies have to make new products with new technology to continue to sell product.

I cannot say what shooters are using what at the Olympic level. I can be certain some are using the electornic triggers. With shooter's who have such a refined technique you would think there would be a sudden increase in scores BECAUSE THEY ARE USING A MUCH SUPERIOR TRIGGER. I haven't seen one though...

This must mean that electronic triggers are a GIMMICK.

Sorry about my rant, but these arguments about recoil and triggers are ridiculous!!!

Mike Douglass

[Axel]

Why are you so offended by electronic triggers Mike Douglass? Grab a coke and cool down a bit :-)

Equipment discussions are almost always boring and unimportant. Use whatever pistol you like and prefer - electronic or mechanical trigger is of less importance.

But ranting about electronic triggers when not even touched one it is just pure ignorance. Try it, perhaps you will find it much superior than mechanical, just as I did. :-) It's all about feel, I want to have the best trigger feeling there is, thats why I prefer electronic, and shoot better with it aswell... :-)

[aurorapolice02_11]

I have touched one, matter of fact several. I was not impressed...

Mike Douglass

[Axel]

You were not impressed, but others are. Lets just leave it like that, ok? :-)

[SteveT]

Why are you so offended by electronic triggers Mike Douglass? Grab a coke and cool down a bit :-)

Dude - do you know that you are talking to a former olympian? His opinion carries more weight than most posters on this list, at least to me.

Steve

[aurorapolice02_11]

I was making a point that electronic triggers are not the end-all be-all that some people think they are. If you like the feel of it, fine, use it. I am trying to inform shooters that an electronic trigger will not make them shoot better. As I stated, if they truly did make you shoot better, there would be a spike in scores at the Olympic level. From what I see, the scores are about the same since the invention of the electronic trigger.

People can use whatever they want, but it floors me that people think equipment replaces good old fashioned training.

I am certain you can shoot a mechanical trigger just as well as your electronic...if you let yourself...

Mike Douglass

[bubba_zenetti]

not to hijack this thread but i have never fired anything with an electronic trigger. mike, can you describe how one feels in comparison to a mechanical unit?

honestly, the trigger on my pistols feel like they are effortless to set off. i can't see any benifit of an electronic trigger other than perhaps a faster lock time?

[Axel]

People can use whatever they want, but it floors me that people think equipment replaces good old fashioned training.

I agree completly.

I am certain you can shoot a mechanical trigger just as well as your electronic...if you let yourself...

It's not just the electronic trigger by it self. You have to like your equipment, the whole package, to shoot well. I like my Morini, much thanks to the electronic trigger, it is fantastic. :-)

[Guest]

Whats with the Electronic Trigger users constant rubbishing of Mechanical Triggers.
Its certainly not a backlash from receiving criticsm the other way.

Maybe some sort of insecurity?

[Guest]

of any significance.

Ilooked up some information in the NRA Firearms Fact Book.

Page 219 is a table of recoil information.


Bullet Charge Velcocity Gun wt. Recoil energy
.22lr 40 grs. 1.1 grs 800 fps 0.5 lbs 0.8 ft-lbs
45 185 grs 7.4 grs 940 fps 2.4 lbs 5.5 ft-lbs

H&N rifle pellets weigh 8.18 grs. or 1/4 that of a .22lr.
The charge is lower but can not really be estimated.

Now I know of a fellow named Brian Zins, and other that precede him including Eric Buljung that shoot some pretty good groups witha 45 at 50 yards.

Yes, the discharge of a pellet from an AP does impart force in the opposite direction as it travels down the barrel. Newtonian physics does apply. But I hold that the value of recoil (and there are several measures) is so small as to be of no consequence.

If you see the AP move on discharge, YOU moved it, not the pellet discharge!

Now here is a man that has obviously never shot a air pistol before. And has no understanding of physics or its practical application.

Great troll, btw!

[bdutton]

Science not withstanding....

My best AP shots are those which I perceived no movement of significance. (you may 'feel the shot'... but did not SEE movement.)

If you perceive movement then you are probably doing something wrong.

[David M]

Interesting reading (mostly a lot of rubbish).
Some food for you to think about.

Firstly all guns recoil - any time you move a mass you get a reaction.
The heavier the mass is or the faster you move it, the bigger the reaction.
Its what you do with that reaction that counts.

What you are trying to do is to be able to read or call your shot, watch your sights during the follow through and have useful feedback.

What we feel as recoil is made up of a number of components
!/ the mass of the bullet and its exit velocity
2/ the mass of the propelling gas and its velocity

When we push an air pellet above about 150- 160 m/s the air energy used has a great felt recoil.
From testing to make a drilled barrel/compensator system(Better word - Gas Defelector) on an air pistol work, the pistol needs to be up in this velocity range.

Hence the Styer has less felt recoil than a Morini (at that Velocity).
If you slow a Morini down to 138-145 m/s the felt recoil is dramatically reduced and muzzle movement is tammed down.

After much testing with many types/styles of compensators on air pistols, and having tested many pellet velocity combinations, I found I like to shoot at about 142-145 m/s with no compensator.
The pistol will still shoot a single hole group.

[Guest]

After much testing with many types/styles of compensators on air pistols, and having tested many pellet velocity combinations.

David,

In all your Comp testing, have you found an optimum distance the pellet should travel after leaving the rifling till entering the next tight diameter (approx 5 mm) that most comps feature?
This distance varies between 3 and 50 mm.

And to add to that, does the style that Morini and Anschutz presently use offer anything more than a sight extension?