What is a good offhand group?

[Diamond Paul]

Can anyone give me an idea of what a really good shooter will group offhand? Say, ten shots at 50 yards/meters. Can anyone consistently group in the .5" range at 100 yards? Just curious, because the locals claim that Jerry Miculek, the noted revolver and Sportsman's Team Challenge shooter, can regularly group .5" at 100 yards, and I just don't believe this. Thanks.

[pdeal]

Our jr. team was squadded pretty close to the AMU team last summer at Camp Perry for the team matches. I took a scope down and was looking at some of Jason Parker's offhand targets. Some of his groups I'd say were sub 1" maybe more like 1/2". He is a world class offhand shooter.

As far as what you wrote about above all I can say is talk is cheap. I don't believe it. I bet he does that with his 10-22 all day long too right?

[Jose Rossy]

the locals claim that Jerry Miculek, the noted revolver and Sportsman's Team Challenge shooter, can regularly group .5" at 100 yards, and I just don't believe this.

If they are talking about his offhand shooting, neither do I.

[Diamond Paul]

Yes, they (the people at Clark's Guns, owned by Jerry's wife (Jim Clark Sr.'s daughter) claim he does this regularly with rifles offhand. I'm just wondering if anyone in the world can do this offhand consistently, since .5" groups are considered very good for a centerfire rifle from a bench (not counting full-up bench guns). It would amaze me if anyone could consistently keep ten shots in a 1" circle offhand at 100 yards. How good do the best Olympic shooters group offhand?

[Jose Rossy]

Jerry should be on the Air Rifle national squad.

[frog5215]

In point of fact, Jerry builds 10/22's that will shoot under 1" @100yd (if you have a day when that's possible-rare in Texas), and AR-15's GUARANTEED to shoot under 1/2" @ 100yd ( mine has shot .299" 5 shot)(bench).
As a practical matter, I don't think there are any 100yd/m paper games with .22s; but the 10 ring on the SS2 50M SB rifle target measures about .350". Allowing .220 or so gives .570" max group to score the "possible" (maximum possible score for the string or match).
Good prone shooters typically shoot the possible: standing, they typically drop 5-10% of shots into the 9 ring (1.120" group).
Typically, group size is based on 5 shot groups when discussing accuracy of guns or people.
I don't really know what distance (or gun) Jerry is said to do this with, but if you haven't seen him shoot, scoff with caution. I know his average shot in a Team Challenge rifle stage (10/22 at 40 to 90 yards, less than 2:30min, maybe up to 50 shots with only the first 20 rounds pre loaded in magazines) is better than my average shot in a 2:30 relay (only 5 shots) in silhouette (Master class, sporter air rifle).

[GA Guest]

Mike Anti, Jason Parker, etc... One hole at 50 meters, Off Hand.

.5" isn't that hard for National Level / World Class shooters.

Now with a 10/22, maybe, but most importantly... If Jerry says so, I'd believe him. He don't lie or exaggerate...

Roy McClain
(678) 772-8185 cell

p.s. Collegiate Shooters often shoot 100 in standing at 50' so that would be 20 shots one quarter of an inch (or less)...

[Diamond Paul]

To clarify, Jerry is a very nice man and is not a bragger at all; he never claimed these kind of groups. Others who work at Clark's told me this when we got to talking about offhand shooting. .5" at 100 yards seems pretty fantastic to me, if one is claiming to be able to do it consistently, not just "every once in a blue moon." Most top tactical rifle gunsmiths will guarantee .5" groups off a bench with match ammo for the guns they build, and many of their guns will do better. . .off a bench. But shooting this well offhand would mean that the shooter's holding area is .5" or less, assuming the rifle groups .5" or better at that distance. I find it hard to believe that any human has an area of wobble that small at 100yds. Just because people shoot the kind of groups mentioned at 50 doesn't translate into .5" at 100. That's like saying an MOA rifle will surely group 5 inches at 500 yds; it probably groups bigger than that when the distance increases. Many good .22's will group .2" at 50, but a .22 that groups under 1" at 100 is rare indeed. I was really just wondering what one would consider good grouping offhand at 100; didn't mean to impugn anyone's reputation or imply that anyone is full of ****, cause I haven't seen enough good shooters to have any clear idea on the subject. Thanks.

[Guest]

With a FT air rifle I can get INSIDE a 1" kill standing 9/10. This is with a 10x scope, in the free standing position.

[Richard H]

With a FT air rifle I can get INSIDE a 1" kill standing 9/10. This is with a 10x scope, in the free standing position.

I doubt you're shooting at 50 or 100 yd's or meters, so what does this really have to do with the discussion.

[Diamond Paul]

Thanks, Richard. Couldn't have said it better myself.

[Tony C.]

lets look at some numbers, the 10 ring on an ISSF 50M free rifle target measure 10.4 mm = 0.41", any 0.22" bullets touches the ring counted as a 10. so any shots land inside a 0.85" circle is a 10.(0.22"X2+0.41"=0.85").Over a distance of 50M=165ft.

A top ISSF free rifle shooter, shooting at the standing part of the 3X40 match, can shoot 75% -85% or so 10s most of the time end up with 390+ pts. out of 400 possible. to do that, the shooter wear canvas jacket, pants, special boots, shooting glass, the rifle is equiped with match sights, balanced and adjusted to fit the shooter, ammo is match to the barrel, etc. etc. you get the idea.

The gentleman in question supposelly can shoot a 0.5" @ 100 yds. group off hand ( ie. standing) regularly with a rifle, by the sounds of it, he dosn't use any kind of special aides. Any rifle that can group 10 shots under 0.5" @ 100yds is an excellent rifle indeed, if that gentleman armed with such a rifle can produce a feat mentioned in this thread, that means when he shoot there's hardly any aimming error at all.

I don't think such a feat is impossible, just very hard to belive not seeing it for myself or without some kind of proof, its also possible that gentleman never made such a claim and is an excellent shooter, however people around him is blowing things out of proportion, kind of like lots of parents of high school football players belive thier child is the next NFL superstar.

[Guest]

Sorry "Richard H" for not fully completing my post, but I am indeed shooting at 50 yards (as the post is following I believe). I am not sure where you doubtfull conclusion about my shooting came from but if you were to post something on www.airgunbbs.com you will be sure to see a few other top shooters being able to do the same. If you work out that you have to hit a .5mm dot at 10m, that gives you a 8mm HOLE to put you pellet through at 10m to get a 10. If you were to shoot at 50m that HOLE would increse to 40mm. To be in direct proportion you would have to use a 5x scope because you are 5 times the distance away from the target (although some may argue this still gives the shooter an advantage over diopter sightes). In many FT matches you will be asked to hit a 40mm kill at 50m, therefore I try to practice 25mm (1inch) to keep myself honed in.

James

p.s I still believe - as some people have stated already- that if you double the range you groups will not simply double, but I was mearly stateing a concept.

[Richard H]

Sorry "Richard H" for not fully completing my post, but I am indeed shooting at 50 yards (as the post is following I believe). I am not sure where you doubtfull conclusion about my shooting came from but if you were to post something on www.airgunbbs.com you will be sure to see a few other top shooters being able to do the same. If you work out that you have to hit a .5mm dot at 10m, that gives you a 8mm HOLE to put you pellet through at 10m to get a 10. If you were to shoot at 50m that HOLE would increse to 40mm. To be in direct proportion you would have to use a 5x scope because you are 5 times the distance away from the target (although some may argue this still gives the shooter an advantage over diopter sightes). In many FT matches you will be asked to hit a 40mm kill at 50m, therefore I try to practice 25mm (1inch) to keep myself honed in.

James

p.s I still believe - as some people have stated already- that if you double the range you groups will not simply double, but I was mearly stateing a concept.

The error between 10m and 50m is not a direct correlation also 10m is shot indoors with no wind. I never doubted your ability I just didn't see how it had anything to do with the post.

[rum4m]

First, to hit ten at 10m you need to get inside 9.5mm circle and not 8mm. Next, let's translate this value to 50m correctly - at 10m this shoots 5mm c-t-c which will be 25mm @ 50m plus 4.5mm = 30mm roughly.

Not taking into account wind blows, bigger pellet dispersion at father distances, a ten at 50 m is to get inside 30mm circle. Once you add wind which not only deflects the pellet, but slightly effects your body's stability, then you'll come to conclusion than hitting 40mm FT kill zone is more or less the same as shooting tens. But I personally would say shooting standing FT targets at 50m is somewhat harder.

I know examples when masters at 10m once started to shoot FT - show very low scores - just near average club score.

[Richard H]

First, to hit ten at 10m you need to get inside 9.5mm circle and not 8mm. Next, let's translate this value to 50m correctly - at 10m this shoots 5mm c-t-c which will be 25mm @ 50m plus 4.5mm = 30mm roughly.

Not taking into account wind blows, bigger pellet dispersion at father distances, a ten at 50 m is to get inside 30mm circle. Once you add wind which not only deflects the pellet, but slightly effects your body's stability, then you'll come to conclusion than hitting 40mm FT kill zone is more or less the same as shooting tens. But I personally would say shooting standing FT targets at 50m is somewhat harder.

I know examples when masters at 10m once started to shoot FT - show very low scores - just near average club score.

You keep babbling about something no one has talked about. 40mm is over 1.5 inches. The thread was about someone shooting 0.5 inch groups off hand with a 22.

Ok I'm impressed with your skill but please stop explaining it to me because I really don't care.

[Guest]

Yes, I understand what rum4m is saying about wind but I practice FT indoors. FT is not about whom is the better standing shot, as that only accounts for about 5% of shots. Also we shoot 40mm HOLES IN MATAL that means that if your pellet hits the outside rim of the HOLE the pellet will not pass through cleanly AND THE TARGET WILL NOT FALL, so that is why I said 8mm HOLE not 9.5mm.

Can anyone give me an idea of what a really good shooter will group offhand?

...back to the thread, I see someone ask what a good offhand group was, and I thought I would explain that many good FT shooters could get 10 shots within 1 inch (25mm) at 50m standing. I cannot comment on the man that shot 1/2" at 100m.