U.S. Manufactured Free Pistol?
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, David Levene, Spencer, Richard H
Forum rules
If you wish to make a donation to this forum's operation , it would be greatly appreciated.
https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/targettalk?yours=true
If you wish to make a donation to this forum's operation , it would be greatly appreciated.
https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/targettalk?yours=true
U.S. Manufactured Free Pistol?
Why can't or won't a custom gunshop like Clark Custom, Rock River, or various individual pistolsmiths come up with a free pistol that would cost about a $1,000. I wonder if the American Pistolsmith Guild would consider such a project?
-
Steve Swartz
Not a bad idea but the economics just aren't there.
Costs (too high), margins (too narrow), and volume (too low).
How many would they sell in the domestic U.S. market? Maybe 100 units the first year, then 20 per year after that?
How many would they sell outside the U.S.? Maybe 0 units the first couple of years, then a small number after that . . .
It would costa an awful lot of money to develop a new pistol. The payback period even with optimistic demand forecasts would be pretty much "never."
However
Perhaps some money could be made by a custom gunworks by modifying an existing design? Then we have the quesiton of what would you start with . . . a TC Contender?
Steve
Costs (too high), margins (too narrow), and volume (too low).
How many would they sell in the domestic U.S. market? Maybe 100 units the first year, then 20 per year after that?
How many would they sell outside the U.S.? Maybe 0 units the first couple of years, then a small number after that . . .
It would costa an awful lot of money to develop a new pistol. The payback period even with optimistic demand forecasts would be pretty much "never."
However
Perhaps some money could be made by a custom gunworks by modifying an existing design? Then we have the quesiton of what would you start with . . . a TC Contender?
Steve
-
Guest
FRank Green did make a very good free pistol called the ElectoArm which was electronic, back in the middle 1960's. It was based on a Winchester 52 bolt action, has a twin points on the firing pin. They were used in the 1968 Olympics by the US team, Vitarbo was 4th- he also proke 570 a number of times with the gun. In the 1980's Smith and Wesson made a rapid fire gun for the US team and shooters, but it went no where. Former US team assistant coach Gary Spychowski(SP?) made a free pistol in the early 90's which was very good but liability costs halted the project I believe- Greg Derr
-
Bill Poole
- Posts: 435
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:50 pm
- Location: Scottsdale, AZ
- Contact:
That assumes every active FP shooter in the US buys one and a spare and we let Nicole shoot too!How many would they sell in the domestic U.S. market? Maybe 100 units the first year, then 20 per year after that?
If we have customers who don't care about cost ($1000+ for a single shot .22?!?) and a maker who does not care about margin and volume (I think there are specialty shops all over the country who build guns cuz they love it not to please some corporate board or wall street analysts and if they could do a project like this, make enug to pay the rent, without LOOSING $$$ they would...) It could happen, not likely, but it couldCosts (too high), margins (too narrow), and volume (too low).
Poole
Bill,
You and I are on the same wavelength. I don't think that any corporation that has to answer to stockholders would consider such a project. I was thinking of an individual who would build a few at a time and make a few bucks in the process. I would like to think that not everything in life hinges on the "Almighty Dollar", most things for sure, but there must be that rare exception. I would think that an Anshutz pistol could be converted to a free pistol, but I'm no expert...just throwing out an idea. Of course it would require appropriate sights and stock. The trigger would have to have multiple adjustment options.
You and I are on the same wavelength. I don't think that any corporation that has to answer to stockholders would consider such a project. I was thinking of an individual who would build a few at a time and make a few bucks in the process. I would like to think that not everything in life hinges on the "Almighty Dollar", most things for sure, but there must be that rare exception. I would think that an Anshutz pistol could be converted to a free pistol, but I'm no expert...just throwing out an idea. Of course it would require appropriate sights and stock. The trigger would have to have multiple adjustment options.
-
Bill Poole
- Posts: 435
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:50 pm
- Location: Scottsdale, AZ
- Contact:
the number one biggest problem is an antiquated 1934 law called the NFA
if 'smiths could take any bolt action action and convert it to a pistol we'd have people all over the country building single shot bolt action pistols just for the fun of it. and many of us target talkers would have our local gun plumber creating free pistols out or Ruger, Marlin, CA, Savage, etc etc bolt actions...
sadly....
that option is not open to us in the US.
someone, no, more than one company, made a single shot centerfire rifle caliber upper to go on a 1911 frame. As tight as bullseye shooters can hold a .45 at 50yds, I'm surprised no one has thought of making one in .22, except that its almost a safe bet no-one who ever built one or bought one of those ever saw or heard of Free Pistol.
maybe we can see if a benchrest action company who makes a tiny BR50 rimfire rifle receiver (is there such a thing?) would make a coupla up and register them as pistols??? $1000 for the action, $200 trigger, $400 barrel, we've reached the cost of a CM84e and have not even found a stock or paid the gunsmith to start working on it...
just dreaming
Poole
if 'smiths could take any bolt action action and convert it to a pistol we'd have people all over the country building single shot bolt action pistols just for the fun of it. and many of us target talkers would have our local gun plumber creating free pistols out or Ruger, Marlin, CA, Savage, etc etc bolt actions...
sadly....
that option is not open to us in the US.
someone, no, more than one company, made a single shot centerfire rifle caliber upper to go on a 1911 frame. As tight as bullseye shooters can hold a .45 at 50yds, I'm surprised no one has thought of making one in .22, except that its almost a safe bet no-one who ever built one or bought one of those ever saw or heard of Free Pistol.
maybe we can see if a benchrest action company who makes a tiny BR50 rimfire rifle receiver (is there such a thing?) would make a coupla up and register them as pistols??? $1000 for the action, $200 trigger, $400 barrel, we've reached the cost of a CM84e and have not even found a stock or paid the gunsmith to start working on it...
just dreaming
Poole
-
Steve Swartz
Bill:
O.K., as an ex-machinist and business major, please allow me to jump back in here. My original assumption was milling from scratch- but the modification idea is much better.
The key here I think is finding a U.S. manufactured (wasn't that the orginal charter?) barrel and action in .22LR that meets the following criteria:
1) Accurate enough with a cut-down barrel for FP work (easy)
2) Fire control system with really light, really crisp trigger (uh oh)
Heck, I'm looking at my old (1960s) Marlin bolt gun and it would meet requirement #1 in a heartbeat. Chop and recrown the barrel, dovetail in a front sight, mount an aftermarket adjustable rear sight, then glass bed it onto a Morini or Rink grip.
You are still left with a) a crappy trigger, and b) an above-the-wrist centerline (problem for all bolt actions).
Assuming you could get a U.S. bolt gun mfgr to make you some chopped barrel actions, you could probably do so for $100 - $200 or so a pop.
Toss in a Jewel trigger for $100-200. Sights, same. Grips, same. Let's say you have purchased all components for $400 - $800.
Now we're talkin!
Add 10-20 hours of bench work . . . you could build match-grade bolt action .22LR pistols with decent grips for less than $1,000.
But the centerline and sight line would fall well above your hand.
If you are willing to live with that, then let's BRING IT ON!
Steve ("Grabbing my Dremel tool and heading for the Marlin") Swartz
O.K., as an ex-machinist and business major, please allow me to jump back in here. My original assumption was milling from scratch- but the modification idea is much better.
The key here I think is finding a U.S. manufactured (wasn't that the orginal charter?) barrel and action in .22LR that meets the following criteria:
1) Accurate enough with a cut-down barrel for FP work (easy)
2) Fire control system with really light, really crisp trigger (uh oh)
Heck, I'm looking at my old (1960s) Marlin bolt gun and it would meet requirement #1 in a heartbeat. Chop and recrown the barrel, dovetail in a front sight, mount an aftermarket adjustable rear sight, then glass bed it onto a Morini or Rink grip.
You are still left with a) a crappy trigger, and b) an above-the-wrist centerline (problem for all bolt actions).
Assuming you could get a U.S. bolt gun mfgr to make you some chopped barrel actions, you could probably do so for $100 - $200 or so a pop.
Toss in a Jewel trigger for $100-200. Sights, same. Grips, same. Let's say you have purchased all components for $400 - $800.
Now we're talkin!
Add 10-20 hours of bench work . . . you could build match-grade bolt action .22LR pistols with decent grips for less than $1,000.
But the centerline and sight line would fall well above your hand.
If you are willing to live with that, then let's BRING IT ON!
Steve ("Grabbing my Dremel tool and heading for the Marlin") Swartz
Bill Poole said, "if 'smiths could take any bolt action action and convert it to a pistol we'd have people all over the country building single shot bolt action pistols just for the fun of it"
That's why I suggest they customize an already existing pistol like the Anshutz. Like you said though, none of it is likely to happen.
That's why I suggest they customize an already existing pistol like the Anshutz. Like you said though, none of it is likely to happen.
Steve,
Now you have the idea. I wonder if a custom stock maker like Dick Horton or Herrett would be able to make some adjustable stock that would place the action lower in the hand? Maybe even a shop that could make...heaven help us...synthetic stocks. I think a pair of synthetic stocks lined with a material as found on Ransom rest inserts might be interesting. I wonder if there are any talented, inquisitive, pistolsmiths who would like a project like this? The gun might just have other applications, as well. The top of the action would be grooved for .22 scope rings wouldn't it?
Now you have the idea. I wonder if a custom stock maker like Dick Horton or Herrett would be able to make some adjustable stock that would place the action lower in the hand? Maybe even a shop that could make...heaven help us...synthetic stocks. I think a pair of synthetic stocks lined with a material as found on Ransom rest inserts might be interesting. I wonder if there are any talented, inquisitive, pistolsmiths who would like a project like this? The gun might just have other applications, as well. The top of the action would be grooved for .22 scope rings wouldn't it?
-
Steve Swartz
Misny:
Most 22 actions would already be cut for scope rings. However, if we could buy short-barreled actions direct from a mfgr we could leave the top of the action alone, buy "white" (unblued), and avoid the modification licensing that Bill mentioned. If we are going to drop in a Jewel trigger we would really only need a barrel and bolt. This would reduce price considerably- but we would have to mill the top for an adjustable rear sight and cut the front for a post; then blue the whole thing after machining.
I thought we were going "American;" as much as I love the anschutz bolt actions they are $$$$! If we go Anschutz though we wouldn't need our own fire control system.
The problem is the bolt actions are already designed a certain way and yoiu have to design the pistol around the trigger.
What I mean is the trigger assembly/action/bolt are pretty much fixed in relationship to each other. From a design standpoint, picture the barreled action floating in space; put the tip of hte index finger on the trigger, and rotate around that point. You are limited by the fact that the bolt has to slide ove the top of the hand.
One of the reasons why Free Pistols use falling block type actions . . .
Steve
Most 22 actions would already be cut for scope rings. However, if we could buy short-barreled actions direct from a mfgr we could leave the top of the action alone, buy "white" (unblued), and avoid the modification licensing that Bill mentioned. If we are going to drop in a Jewel trigger we would really only need a barrel and bolt. This would reduce price considerably- but we would have to mill the top for an adjustable rear sight and cut the front for a post; then blue the whole thing after machining.
I thought we were going "American;" as much as I love the anschutz bolt actions they are $$$$! If we go Anschutz though we wouldn't need our own fire control system.
The problem is the bolt actions are already designed a certain way and yoiu have to design the pistol around the trigger.
What I mean is the trigger assembly/action/bolt are pretty much fixed in relationship to each other. From a design standpoint, picture the barreled action floating in space; put the tip of hte index finger on the trigger, and rotate around that point. You are limited by the fact that the bolt has to slide ove the top of the hand.
One of the reasons why Free Pistols use falling block type actions . . .
Steve
Hasn't the Contender seen some use as an entry level FP ? Why not a Contender , with a bracket to project the rear sight back to give an acceptable sight radius . That would then seem to leave only the issue of grips and triggers .
A knowledgable shooter/machinist ( like Mr. Steve ) with the help of a competent electronics tech . , should be able to come up with a home grown electronic trigger . I've heard tell of a fella who has designed his own circut to revitalize old Walther electronic trigger free pistols .
It could be done , would it be comercially viable - whole nother question .
Not knowing much about the Contender , could the existing trigger be tweaked enuff ?
Chris
A knowledgable shooter/machinist ( like Mr. Steve ) with the help of a competent electronics tech . , should be able to come up with a home grown electronic trigger . I've heard tell of a fella who has designed his own circut to revitalize old Walther electronic trigger free pistols .
It could be done , would it be comercially viable - whole nother question .
Not knowing much about the Contender , could the existing trigger be tweaked enuff ?
Chris
-
Kemmoa
American FP
It's out there.
Thompson Center Contender G2
http://www.tcarms.com/TC_HTML/TC_G2_Pistol_Home.htm
See all the potentials? and the tag?
Thompson Center Contender G2
http://www.tcarms.com/TC_HTML/TC_G2_Pistol_Home.htm
See all the potentials? and the tag?
-
Steve Swartz
Yeah a contender was my first choice (see thread above) but you still have 1) the bore centerline issue and 2) the trigger issue and 3) retrofit of an anatomical grip.
A modified Contender would be the "fastest" (in terms of direct labor applied) though.
I haven't messad around with Contender triggers much. The ones I have shot out of the box are horrendous though.
Steve
A modified Contender would be the "fastest" (in terms of direct labor applied) though.
I haven't messad around with Contender triggers much. The ones I have shot out of the box are horrendous though.
Steve
-
Nicole Hamilton
- Posts: 477
- Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2006 1:17 pm
- Location: Redmond, Washington, USA
- Contact:
If you ask me -- not that anyone did :) -- the whole gun is horrendous. I have one, chambered for .223 and it's sort of fun out on a 100 yard range. You really notice the difference in velocity between rifle and pistol rounds with a T/C in ways you don't when shooting a rifle: It's like a rocket taking off from your hand!Steve Swartz wrote:I haven't messad around with Contender triggers much. The ones I have shot out of the box are horrendous though.
But in other respects, it's a miserable affair. The break action is a bear to open, the trigger is terrible and the grip is even worse. Okay, I guess I can see why some folks might be thinking about what you could do with one, but it sure wouldn't be me!
Come on Nicole don't beat around the bush and sugar coat it say what you really mean.Nicole Hamilton wrote:If you ask me -- not that anyone did :) -- the whole gun is horrendous. I have one, chambered for .223 and it's sort of fun out on a 100 yard range. You really notice the difference in velocity between rifle and pistol rounds with a T/C in ways you don't when shooting a rifle: It's like a rocket taking off from your hand!Steve Swartz wrote:I haven't messad around with Contender triggers much. The ones I have shot out of the box are horrendous though.
But in other respects, it's a miserable affair. The break action is a bear to open, the trigger is terrible and the grip is even worse. Okay, I guess I can see why some folks might be thinking about what you could do with one, but it sure wouldn't be me!
Other than 45's there really aren't many other accurate target or ISSF type pistols being made in the US. If someone was going to make a pistol from a business stand point I don't think I would start with a Free Pistol in the US. If some tells me about 41's and Rugers, that what I mean there are really no good ISSF type pistols being made in the US.
-
dhurt
The T/C makes a good sillywhet gun, mine is very accurate, and the trigger is very good(after careful tweaking), but the high boreline, long locktime, poor one handed balance make the pistol hard to shoot as a free pistol. A bolt action would be a better starting point. Look at the older Pardini free pistols. I really liked the PGP 75 after shooting it, kind of ugly, but a nice shooter. Dwaine
-
Steve Swartz
So back to a "white" short barrel top end . . .
Is there a currently available 22LR bolt gun, made in USA, that would have an acceptable trigger (or at least something we could work with)?
Alternately, is there a current top end that we could mate a Jewell trigger to?
Maybe we need to be asking htis over in the Rifle forum . . .
Steve Swartz
Is there a currently available 22LR bolt gun, made in USA, that would have an acceptable trigger (or at least something we could work with)?
Alternately, is there a current top end that we could mate a Jewell trigger to?
Maybe we need to be asking htis over in the Rifle forum . . .
Steve Swartz
-
nthe10ring
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 12:16 pm
- Location: North Carolina
Rogue Rifle Company
Rogue rifle company makes this single shot left bolt pistol, the trigger would not be any good but might be a place to start, i have been thinking about getting one to play with, only a couple of hundred bucks.
- Attachments
-
- pistol-40004-41004-42004-43004.gif (32.17 KiB) Viewed 3206 times
-
dhurt
I think this action must be manually cocked after closing the bolt, not a problem with the grip as pictured, but it would be hard to make a "free pistol" grip with this cocking feature? Sounds like the price is right, and if you wanted a basic grip, this might be a good starting point. Now for the trigger. Are we trying for a 8-16 ounce trigger? Maybe find a way to move the rearsight rearward and chop off some of the barrel.