Vogel Pellets
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, David Levene, Spencer, Richard H
Forum rules
If you wish to make a donation to this forum's operation , it would be greatly appreciated.
https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/targettalk?yours=true
If you wish to make a donation to this forum's operation , it would be greatly appreciated.
https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/targettalk?yours=true
Vogel Pellets
How good are Vogel pellets? Are they better than R-10's? Or about the same?
-
Steve Swartz
The following humble observations are for your consideration please. While I know that many other participants in this forum will disagree, go tot eh challenge at teh bottom of the post- if anyone is able to provide data showing a statistically significant difference in group sizes between brands of "match grade pellets" measured under controlled conditions, it would be the first time in the 6 years I have been paying attention to the issue.
[I would offer profuse, humble, and heartfelt apologies publicly to anyone who could meet that standard (statistical significance, at 99% CI, of a 1mm group size difference). I would also purchase a sleeve of the superior pellet for that individual and make a public presentation of the free pellets at a suitably humiliating and public forum! The variable of interest is "average distance from the centroid using a 60 shot trial" and we must be 99% confident that there is a 1mm or greater difference in mean distance between the two pellet brands. Under controlled conditions, of course!]
1) All following comments apply only to high quality, "match grade" pellets;
2) A particular gun, barrel cut, and pressure curve (mostly adjusted with velocity adjustment) will prefer a particular weight and skirt dimension over "brand" if any preference exists at all;
3) The group size (CEP) will vary between lots of the same brand of pellet equally (if not more!) than the variance between brands of pellets;
and
4) even if a CEP were to be affected by *any* of the above the difference in score would only be realized if you were physically capable of shooting in the 580+ range regularly.
Statistically, the CEP differences between pellets would be significant only under ransom rest conditions . . . and is hardly measurable even then. To be sginificant, the mean distance from centroid for two groups of 60 pellets would have to be statistically measurable. The shot-shot variance is generally larger than the between-groups variance.
Short answer: buy a whole buttload of whatever match-grade pellet makes you feel confident in your equipment. Then shoot them all up!
Steve Swartz
[I would offer profuse, humble, and heartfelt apologies publicly to anyone who could meet that standard (statistical significance, at 99% CI, of a 1mm group size difference). I would also purchase a sleeve of the superior pellet for that individual and make a public presentation of the free pellets at a suitably humiliating and public forum! The variable of interest is "average distance from the centroid using a 60 shot trial" and we must be 99% confident that there is a 1mm or greater difference in mean distance between the two pellet brands. Under controlled conditions, of course!]
1) All following comments apply only to high quality, "match grade" pellets;
2) A particular gun, barrel cut, and pressure curve (mostly adjusted with velocity adjustment) will prefer a particular weight and skirt dimension over "brand" if any preference exists at all;
3) The group size (CEP) will vary between lots of the same brand of pellet equally (if not more!) than the variance between brands of pellets;
and
4) even if a CEP were to be affected by *any* of the above the difference in score would only be realized if you were physically capable of shooting in the 580+ range regularly.
Statistically, the CEP differences between pellets would be significant only under ransom rest conditions . . . and is hardly measurable even then. To be sginificant, the mean distance from centroid for two groups of 60 pellets would have to be statistically measurable. The shot-shot variance is generally larger than the between-groups variance.
Short answer: buy a whole buttload of whatever match-grade pellet makes you feel confident in your equipment. Then shoot them all up!
Steve Swartz
-
Steve Swartz
-
tmac5020
Vogel Pellets
Steve has, as always (in 25 words or less) hit the nail on the head. Point added for emphasis however: Vogel is a good quality pellet. Our host sells NOTHING that isn't. Your choice of pistol and your own experience will be the determining factors.
My Izzy loves Vogel Yellow at 4.49mm, my Benelli Kite prefers H&N Match Hi-Speed at 4.49mm, while neither cares much for R-10s in any size or weight.
A good friend practices with (gag!) Daisy Flats ($3+ from WalMart) in his Steyr LP10. He gave me a tin to put through my Kite, and while the holes are ragged, they will group 9s and 10s with only the ocassional curve ball that I probably could avoid with better inspection. Like drinking swamp water from a fine crystal goblet: Dirty but cheap.
A good eye, a steady hand, a clean pistol, and a sense of humor will increase your scores more than the "best" pellet. Find a dependable source of one pellet brand/size/weight you are comfortable with and stick with it.
My Izzy loves Vogel Yellow at 4.49mm, my Benelli Kite prefers H&N Match Hi-Speed at 4.49mm, while neither cares much for R-10s in any size or weight.
A good friend practices with (gag!) Daisy Flats ($3+ from WalMart) in his Steyr LP10. He gave me a tin to put through my Kite, and while the holes are ragged, they will group 9s and 10s with only the ocassional curve ball that I probably could avoid with better inspection. Like drinking swamp water from a fine crystal goblet: Dirty but cheap.
A good eye, a steady hand, a clean pistol, and a sense of humor will increase your scores more than the "best" pellet. Find a dependable source of one pellet brand/size/weight you are comfortable with and stick with it.
-
Mark Briggs
- Posts: 583
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 8:35 am
- Location: The Frigid North - Ottawa, Canada
OK, not to sing along with the choir, I'll put in a word of (slight) dissent here. I believe almost entirely in what Steve has mentioned. But with all that having been said, there IS value in group testing to find out which lot number of pellets works best in your pistol.
I have done this kind of testing with high-grade pellets and found that group size is, as Steve pointed out, impacted greatly by different lot numbers. Although my testing wasn't as exacting as Steve calls for, I have noted a 1.7mm group size (outside to outside) increase between two different lots of the same brand of pellet (H&N Finale Match Glatt rifle pellets, since my pistols seem to like them better than lightweight pistol pellets). The pistol was clamped in a vise, and the target was firmly clamped in place to ensure it didn't move. With an eye toward keeping my gun working well within the normal range of an air cylinder I limited my groups to 40 shots each (not 60 as Steve suggests). Two cleaning pellets were fired through the pistol, then two fouling pellets were fired, then the test began. When 40 shots had been fired I removed the target, again fired two cleaning pellets and two fouling shots with the new batch of pellets, put up a clean target and shot another 40 shots. This same test was repeated some time later and the results were found to be comparable
But what does this all mean? The major conclusions are what really counts...
1) Any good pellet will likely shoot just fine from your pistol. I have yet to see a really horrid group that would put any shots completely outside the 10-ring.
2) When you buy pellets, or any other ammo for that matter, buy in bulk quantity. Once you do this you will shoot the same ammo for a year or two, and build experience and confidence with that ammo. You will effectively have removed one variable from the shooting performance equation.
3) Spend your time working on the single largest source of shooting error - YOUR SHOOTING TECHNIQUE. Ten hours spent at the bench testing pellets won't buy you nearly as many points as 10 minutes of intense training with a good coach.
I have done this kind of testing with high-grade pellets and found that group size is, as Steve pointed out, impacted greatly by different lot numbers. Although my testing wasn't as exacting as Steve calls for, I have noted a 1.7mm group size (outside to outside) increase between two different lots of the same brand of pellet (H&N Finale Match Glatt rifle pellets, since my pistols seem to like them better than lightweight pistol pellets). The pistol was clamped in a vise, and the target was firmly clamped in place to ensure it didn't move. With an eye toward keeping my gun working well within the normal range of an air cylinder I limited my groups to 40 shots each (not 60 as Steve suggests). Two cleaning pellets were fired through the pistol, then two fouling pellets were fired, then the test began. When 40 shots had been fired I removed the target, again fired two cleaning pellets and two fouling shots with the new batch of pellets, put up a clean target and shot another 40 shots. This same test was repeated some time later and the results were found to be comparable
But what does this all mean? The major conclusions are what really counts...
1) Any good pellet will likely shoot just fine from your pistol. I have yet to see a really horrid group that would put any shots completely outside the 10-ring.
2) When you buy pellets, or any other ammo for that matter, buy in bulk quantity. Once you do this you will shoot the same ammo for a year or two, and build experience and confidence with that ammo. You will effectively have removed one variable from the shooting performance equation.
3) Spend your time working on the single largest source of shooting error - YOUR SHOOTING TECHNIQUE. Ten hours spent at the bench testing pellets won't buy you nearly as many points as 10 minutes of intense training with a good coach.
good pellets
I have my own criteria.
If you shot 540 or under, use any brand of pellets, included coperhead, daisy, gamo or any other.
If you shot between 540 and 560, dont use cheap pellets likedaisy, coperhead, geco.
If you shot 560 or more, use only pellets with quality control, i.e. with diameters like 4,49 or 4,51 (dont available in cheap pellets) and deviates census value (dont available in cheap pellets).
In H&N, RWS, Vogel or JSB.
Is my opinion,
Nano
If you shot 540 or under, use any brand of pellets, included coperhead, daisy, gamo or any other.
If you shot between 540 and 560, dont use cheap pellets likedaisy, coperhead, geco.
If you shot 560 or more, use only pellets with quality control, i.e. with diameters like 4,49 or 4,51 (dont available in cheap pellets) and deviates census value (dont available in cheap pellets).
In H&N, RWS, Vogel or JSB.
Is my opinion,
Nano
-
bluechucky
- Posts: 39
- Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 9:13 am
- Location: Victoria, Australia
-
air-man
China - pellets
I am searching for an e-mail adress/home-page-adress for companies importing chinese pellets.
In Europe there is a marked trend to go for chinese pellets, especially for the 5-shot programs.
Think the chinese pellets will be displayed at the 2006 EWA.
Any help, anyone?
In Europe there is a marked trend to go for chinese pellets, especially for the 5-shot programs.
Think the chinese pellets will be displayed at the 2006 EWA.
Any help, anyone?
Sticky Chinese air pellets
Someone gave me some Chinese pellets a couple of years ago.
1. Accuracy was the same as any other - I never could tell any difference in accuracy between pellets. Not that I ever tested in a solid rest.
2. I strongly prefer not to buy anything from China when I don't have to. In this case, I don't have to, so I don't.
3. These particular pellets were lubricated with something gooey like honey. The biggest problem was making the pellets stay in the gun instead of sticking to my fingers! I prefer a lube that will neither come off on other objects nor attract dirt to the pellets.
1. Accuracy was the same as any other - I never could tell any difference in accuracy between pellets. Not that I ever tested in a solid rest.
2. I strongly prefer not to buy anything from China when I don't have to. In this case, I don't have to, so I don't.
3. These particular pellets were lubricated with something gooey like honey. The biggest problem was making the pellets stay in the gun instead of sticking to my fingers! I prefer a lube that will neither come off on other objects nor attract dirt to the pellets.
Re: China - pellets
In the UK, most people seem to favour the H&N finale or R10's in 5 shot air pistol events. I use 4.50 H&N Finale in my LP5 and that shoots great out to 25M.air-man wrote:I am searching for an e-mail adress/home-page-adress for companies importing chinese pellets.
In Europe there is a marked trend to go for chinese pellets, especially for the 5-shot programs.
Think the chinese pellets will be displayed at the 2006 EWA.
Any help, anyone?
Rob.
Until you get to "International" competitive level, you really shouldn't worry too much about the pellets that you are using, just as long as they are of a name brand. It never hurts to fire several types in your gun (off of a rest) to see what they will do. Most any of the pellets in the US will achieve a about a 3mm or better group with a match grade pistol. Until I was shooting consistent 570's I used Crosman match or whatever size of H&N Finale match I could get. After that, I discovered my LP1 fired Finale Match 4.49mm better than any other size. They would punch a 10 shot group the size of 1 shot. Unless you hold as steady as a rest does, it really shouldn't matter if you use the most expensive or not. Good luck.
-
Guest
-
Barry Markowitz
Testing at the OTC back in '92
14 years ago a few of us got together with my Steyr LP-1 (CO2) modified by a prototype of Don Nygord's "Turbo Comp" and a vice, in the air conditioned US Olympic Training Center indoor shooting range and tested til we got a one hole group with 4.51 of almost any competition pellet. While as Steve and others have mentioned, it doesn't matter, I think psychologically it hammers home that the technology is better than you are, and that you have no excuses for improvement. Fixing the grip is probably more important, and dry firing than going to the extreme we went to. But we did make ol' Don happy with our results. No we didn't test without the "Turbo Comp", but I assume we would have found similar results at whatever size pellet.
-
Richard Newman
Vogel pellets
I fully agree that choice of a pellet is one of the last and least variables to worry about. IF there is any significant difference among pellet brands or versions it is probably in quality control - that is the degree of variability from pellet to pellet in weight and/or diameter (and just maybe in shape). Barring a detailed experiment using multiple lots of different brands, and different diameters, in different pistols, and a batch of other controls, I doubt that it will make much difference. What any particular gun likes will probably be greater in variation than brand difference. If anyone has lots of spare time and a sufficiently precise scale or balance, they could weigh samples of different pellets (at least 100 from each lot) to estimate variance. But you would probably be better off spending that time practicing.
Richard NEwman
Richard NEwman