Bullseye vs. N310 in .32 S&W Long?

[IPshooter]

It appears to me that these two powders are very similar. Has anyone seen a clear advantage of one over the other when loading the Lapua 98gr LWC? Does one measure better than the other through powder measures?

Stan

[RJP]

Bullseye leaves a lot of burnt powder residue in your gun and N310 burns much cleaner. I use N310 because I can shoot more shots between cleanings.

Measuring small powder charges depends more on consistant technique than anything else.

[F. Paul in Denver]

I've been trying to use VVN310 in my Dillon setup. My disappointing results lead me to strongly suspect the Dillon powder measure is not metering this powder very well at 1.5 grains. While I have yet to confirm this personally, several people have voiced similar complaints about the Dillon powder measures even when using the extra small charge bar.

I dont know whether switching to BE powder would fare any better.

However, it has been suggested that Trailboss powder which is much bulkier makes a good substiute when metering at these small amounts. I've not tried it yet though.


Dave Wilson who makes custom .32 barrels had this to say about some of his own research which you may find helpful:

---------------------


I am attaching some of the results I have gathered over the summer using a barrel the same length and chamber as the one I made for you. I have only listed the ten-X groups. I have tried some other powders and more to come in the future.


10-X groups; Speer bullets; Lapua brass; seated flush; .325" taper crimp.

Groups are calculated on Mean Radius using the RCBS Target Tool.

1.68 BE
722A
11SD
2.10"


1.61 BE
703A
12SD
1.88"


1.50 BE
679A
8SD
2.20"


1.45 BE
655A
8SD
2.11"


1.40 BE
641A
9SD
2.05"


1.44 BE
648A
6SD
1.44"


1.44 BE
654A
4SD
2.11"


1.55 TrailBoss
667A
17SD
1.93"
Good Group, high SD

1.44 BE
632A
8SD
1.78"


1.58 PB
618A
13SD
1.92"
PB is an IMR Powder, WSP primer

1.48 PB
584A
20SD
2.02"
Good Group, high SD, WSP primer

1.44 BE
640A
7SD
2.14"


1.41 N310
648A
11SD
2.09"


1.46 N310
719A
11SD
2.21"


1.44 BE
638A
10SD
2.13"


1.61 PB
683A
10SD
1.99"
Used Federal #200 primers, better SD

1.69 PB
715A
10SD
1.86"
Used Federal #200 primers, better SD
1.91 PB
781A
10SD
2.10"
MAXIMUM. Also used Fed #200 primers

1.44 BE
636A
13SD
1.99"


I have loaded the 1.44 BE several times and it seems to repeat. Doc and I agreed that since the 32 is a blowback gun, the same ammo will have a lesser velocity in the pistol vs. the solid breech barrel fixture and that the load for the offhand shooting should be tweaked upward to match the velocity of the barrel fixture.
I have had good results with the IMR PB powder. However, to reduce the extreme spread and standard deviation, I find that the use of the Federal #200 primer is needed.

The new IMR TrailBoss powder is interesting. Three grains will fill a 32 case. I thought it may be the answer to shooters that have difficulty loading with small charges. It is very clean and a 1.5 grain charge is very mild to shoot. It has produced 10X groups with factory Haemmerli SP-20 barrels. You may want to try some in your factory Walther barrel. If you do, let me know the results. Again, check the velocity with the chronograph. Do not be hesitant to try a hotter primer to improve the results.

I have had several groups that shot 100X10 that had a high extreme spread. Talking with Doc, he concurred that while it shoots well in a solid fixture, the variation in velocity could cause a vertical stringing when fired out of hand and this is why he strives for an Extreme Spread of 25, or less.

With kind regards,

Dave Wilson

-------------------------------------------

[j-team]

I'm assuming (hoping) that those groups are at 50 yards?

[F. Paul in Denver]

J-team,

Good question and one which I have asked but not yet received a response. I will post the answer here when I get it though.

Purely speculating, my guess is that these groups were shot at 25 yards. I would be thrilled to hear I'm wrong.


F. Paul

[James Hurr]

My personal experience with 0.32:

N310 meters better and burns cleaner than Bullseye.

HBWC are very hard to load for, over or under pressure and too high or too low a velocity and they just don't work.

Lapuas are the best HBWC - if a bit soft

A key part of loading for 0.32 S+WL is to get the right size case expander - most 0.32 bullets are ~0.312 dia, your HWBC is usually 0.314.

Usually the case expander will size the case internal to ~0.310-311, which is terrible for a soft 0.314 HWBC - plus you need a lot of case flare to get the bullet to start -> your cases crack up pretty quickly. If you get hold of a 0.314 expander you will then find your resizing die sizes too small, between resizing and expanding your brass suffers a lot of cold work.

Crimp is also critical, as the soft bullet has to squeeze through that. Just enough to remove case flare and give feeding should be enough, and taper rather than roll obviously.

If you have revolver I would question if HBWC are really a good idea at all. The case skirt gets so much work in the chamber, then the forcing cone, then leaving the barrel.

My best experience has been with flat based, bevel edge wadcutters or the Lee 90g tumble lube TC/bevel base bullet, but that was in a S+W M16 and is another story

[j-team]

My pet load for the last 17+ years has been:

1.5gr WST
Lapua Case
Lapua projectile
Federal primer

But, in recent times WST has been hard to find here in New Zealand.

So, I have tried N310 and ADI AP50 both with good results

10 shot groups (from a machine rest) at 25m are around 20-25mm (centre to centre). Walther GSP.

I agree with those others who say that N310 is very clean burning and provided I can get a regular supply will probably be my new choice.

[F. Paul in Denver]

J-team,

David Wilson reports that his test loads were shot from 50 yards.

A caveat is that these groups were obtained in a custom .32 barrel he builds for the Hammerli SP20 and the Pardini HP. I'm not sure if he builds Walther barrels but I'd be surprised if he didnt.

While I have not purchased one from him, Dave has a sterling reputation. Anyone interested in him can do so at:

fc60net@attglobal.net


By the way J-team - what powder measure are you using to get consistent metering with the small amounts of the various powders you are using??



F. Paul in Denver

[j-team]

By the way J-team - what powder measure are you using to get consistent metering with the small amounts of the various powders you are using??

The incredible low-tech and in-expensive LEE micro disc!

[IPshooter]

j-team,

When you load with N310, what charge do you use? And, is this with the 98gr Lapua bullet?

Stan

[j-team]

1.5gr of N310 and yes I use the 98gr Lapua.

[j-team]

One other thing worth mentioning is that fact that the cases shorten as you load them more often. This can cause your crimp to change.

Try to keep you cases in batches and rotate them through so they have all been loaded the same number of times each.

[Bill Poole]

cases SHORTEN as you load them more often?

I thought they LENGTHENED.... that's why we have case trimmers

Poole

[crrmeyer]

cases SHORTEN as you load them more often?

I thought they LENGTHENED.... that's why we have case trimmers

Poole

For bottle neck rifle cases, they do lengthen. The cases stretch due to the upward force of the neck expander ball. But straight wall pistol cases do not have a neck expanding ball in the resizing die, so they actually shorten over time. It is something I have noted over the years on 38 / 357 brass.

Charles

[Scott H.]

I'm pretty sure that case lengthening takes place because of the tendency of brass to flow under heat and pressure of firing. You size them back into shape, but, when you do, they tend to lengthen.

[IPshooter]

1.5gr of N310 and yes I use the 98gr Lapua.

Thanks.

[j-team]

I'm pretty sure that case lengthening takes place because of the tendency of brass to flow under heat and pressure of firing. You size them back into shape, but, when you do, they tend to lengthen.

CRRMEYER is correct, rifle cases lengthen with use, pistol cases shorten.

Get your oldest case and put it next to a brand new one, the difference will be visible.

[dhurt]

J-Team, I use a Lee Microdisc as well, and I have had really good luck with it as well. It is nice when something cheap works so well. My Walther seems to shoot Bullseye a little tighter than the VV310, so I use the bullseye, even if it is a little dirtier. My Walther always shoots anyway. Happy shooting.

[Reinhamre]

Hi,

This may help to understand the problems:

http://www.mail-archive.com/cybershoote ... 01996.html

Follow the thred!


Kent