Survey: What do you want in a target changer?

[Amanda]

Hello,
I am a senior in high school at Moore Norman Technology Center in Oklahoma. My project team and I are working on our senior design project in a class called Engineering Design and Development.

Our goal is to create an electronic target-changing device that uses a roll of targets, and a wireless remote to control both the height of the target box and to switch between targets. We are trying to design this assembly so that it is easy to maintain and cost effective enough for clubs.

Does anyone have any interest in seeing one of these target boxes built?
If so why or why not?
Are there any recomendations or suggestions you might like to add?

Thank you all for your input,
If you would like to contact me about this project please do not hesitate to E-mail me at: aj.mntc@gmail.com

Amanda Jeffries
Tim Long

[David Levene]

Out of interest, why would you want to change the height of the target box.
Is this for a particular US event. It is superfluous for ISSF. Where you have fixed target heights.

[pilkguns]

David,
we shoot 3P AR at 10 meters over here, and change the target height for each position.

Amanda, are you familar with http://targetworx.com/
Seems they are already doing what you are proposing

regards to all
Scott

[Jose Rossy]

An affordable, fully electronic target (a la Sius Ascor) would be cool......

[Amanda]

Scott,

I have seen the target box that www.targetworx.com and also www.creedmoorsports.com puts out. We are trying to improve upon that idea by making the target box adjustable for height from the firing line, reducing the need to walk downrange, also to add a wireless remote and make other small imporovements.

Thank you all for your input,

Amanda Jeffries
Tim Long

[Steve Swartz]

Well, a currently available target box mounted to a cradle along a reduced-length stretch of screw-drive garage door opener would work . . . simple electronics with microswitches (Ed Hall!!!) would work . . . and you already have the radio control . . . just program the electronics to cycle up-up-up-all the way down- repeat or a reversible switch up-up-up-down-down-down-up etc. cycle

Steve Swartz

[pilkguns]

I am so sorry Amanda, you did say just that in the sentence that I apparently just skipped over.

[Guest]

One of the things to go with the target box is to produce a cheap roll of targets! Oh, and it has to withstand the occasional wild shot that will, of course, hit the most sensitive part of the works. Also (not too demanding, eh?) be able to be stored away compactly when not in use.

[STL Will]

Here is an example of a range that has what I believe you are looking for in height adjustment capabilities, minus the wireless aspect.

http://www.odcmp.org/1204/default.asp?page=ENTERPRISE

Easily the coolest set up I have ever seen.


Will Bresnahan

[TWP]

Just a thought,

If you are going to the trouble of adding things to the target changer, how about adding a camera to it that would display the shot. A monitor could be on the shooters position and another behind the line for spectators.

That would give some of the feedback of the electronic targets at a much lower cost.

It might be tough to do wireless though.

[TomF]

You can get a wireless camera for about $50 now and do it yourself.

I use my video camera because it has a longer zoom and I can place it farther from the target.

Here is a picture I have posted before from my kitchen through the breakfast room to the fireplace in the den. I can shoot over 50' if I go all the way to the wall in the kitchen.

[pilkguns]

seems I deleted more than I should have, so here are the missing posts

from Eddy at Targetworx
As the owner of Targetworx and manufacturer of the above referenced target changer I've found this thread interesting. Adding remote height adjustment is an idea we've had from the start. We have a design and prototype already built. If we ever get caught up on orders that design will get worked out and put into production. That being said, the plan was to save it for use in conjunction with an electronic scoring device that would work with our changers and paper targets. While there hasn't really been a demand for target height control, there certainly is a demand for electronic scoring for under $1500. At this point using target height control would make sense since there would be no need to go down range at each changeover to retrieve targets for scoring.

We have had a few requests for wireless remotes. There are two problems, cost and cross talk. The idea behind our machines was to keep the cost down. Adding wireless will add significant cost. In addition, when you put 10,20, or like at the NRA's nationals 75 points on one line, the chance of one shooters button controlling anothers target is there. This can be taken care of with digital coding but then that add's even more expense.

We are working on a few things for the future. We already have a .22 converstion getting ready for production. We are working with National Target towards better paper and target quality. And perhaps this year we will get a prototype electronic scoring ad-on for our machines built. This will use the existing target rolls therefore allowing for a paper record!

editors(pilkguns) note, last paragraph of this post is removed.

from Ray Odle
The roll targets are interesting, but it's being done.

I'd like to see a reasonble price target changer for single bull targets, both air rifle and air pistol.

These machines used to be available.
A simple design using off the shelf parts offered to the general public to build their own. I always wonder why a used computer printer couldn't be adapted.

and then from me, after some e-mail from some concerned parents

Hmmmmm, Eddy I appreciate you giving your thoughts, it is some valuable insight for all but I feel I should make a slight editorial cut in your post. These are high school kids working on a school project, and no doubt providing positive exposure to a large portion of the faculty and other students by this developmental extension of their sport normally practiced in exclusion and as such I think any allusions to the Chinese are not justified. Multiple patents are issued each year on small differences between an exisiting design and a newly thought one, some of which make their owners millionaires. I appreciate the time you volunteer to the sport, and also know as businessman that you have to protect what you have put into your work, but I think this should have been said with a little less edge given the circumstances

[pdeal]

I have some thoughts on the subject but from a different angle. Our junior club is blessed to be able to shoot at the WVU range in winter. This range is used for 10m air (standing only) and 50' smallbore. Their 50' smallbore target carriers run on a overhead wire and are hand cranked back and forth. The crank uses a loop of thin nylon rope with a pulley at each end to pull the target in and out. The weight of the little target trolley is carried by the steel wire. The 10m air system uses the single bull targets with Spieth (sp?) carriers. Each system works nicely on its own but changing the range over is a project. Also, the Spieth system with all its strings takes up the whole floor space. If you are doing a clinic and want to use the range space for presentations then the air rifle system is in the way. Also, if you want to shoot 3p air in there that does not work so well.

I am an Engineer and consequently tend to think about alternatives. I was thinking that a very nice system would be to basically automate the 50' system described above. In my mind I see a switch where the shooter can select 10m or 50'. Then you have an in/out switch that sends the target in and out. Nowadays ac motor controls for 3phase motors are super nice. I think the proper motor control could be selected (off the shelf) and it would do most of the controls. You could use a small 3 phase ac motor to drive it. Then program the motor controls with a ramp at the start and finish. Some of them can do fancy exponential ramps so you can get the speed up really high but have it stop very smoothly at each end. Sensors could be put at the top to tell the control when to start slowing down and when to stop for each distance. I understand that there are systems in place that do the distance selection but are too slow to be used for single bull targets. With a system like this single bull targets could even be used at 50'!

Another nicety about a system like this is that I could use it in my basement. We shoot air rifle (my daughters and I) in my basement which is also my shop. Using any of the traditional single bull carriers is not too practical since it has to go down the middle of the shop. If the wire was on the ceiling as it would be on the system described above then it could be left in place.

[Steve Swartz]

I have seen a variety of both sutomated and hand-cranked systems that use the same carrier for different distances.

The automated carriers at some private ranges allow you to type in a number, specify inches, feet, meters, etc. . . . then program whether the targets would remain static at distance or turn and face/edge for various intervals (used at FBI academy and various big-city PD ranges).

At the other end of the spectrum is the hand cranked system where you tie a 10-meter length of twine to the target carrier and then crank it out till the twine is tight . . . (Cincinnati pistol & revolver club).

Now, talk to me about a target carrier system repeatable enough to use with a fixed Rika transmitter downrange not requiring calibration between every target change and you'll get my attention . . .

=8^)

Steve Swartz

[Fred Mannis]

Now, talk to me about a target carrier system repeatable enough to use with a fixed Rika transmitter downrange not requiring calibration between every target change and you'll get my attention . . .

Hi Steve. Just curious - why do you need to change targets with the RIKA? Are you live firing with the RIKA trainer?

Fred

[pdeal]

Steve: none of the systems that I have seen/heard of that use an overhead wire are suitable for single bull targets. The automated ones I have heard of they tell me are too slow- never seen one myself. The manual one is not real practical to use because it would disrupt your shooting too much in a 60 shot match.

[Steve Swartz]

Not sure why overhead wire is not suitable for single bull targets- I'm not understanding the issue.

Yes, live fire with Rika is "best of both worlds" for training. Get scores/feedback etc. from both channels.

Steve

[jhmartin]

After having worked several large matches (30 units on the line) now using the Targetworx system here are some comments and desires:
(I've shot on them in the Sectionals as well)

I do understand that some of these add cost, but they would be timesavers

1) Easier loading ... with the curled rolls it can be frustrating to try and get them past the bottom lip ... I carry a pair of sissors w/ me to trim the end

2) Goes w/ #1 ... maybe a sharper lip at the bottom to tear/cut the target rolls off neater .... makes loading easier the next time

3) I've had some of the target roller wheels strip out ... a dot of JB-Weld on the threads of the shaft fix this ... still a bummer during a match to have to stop shooting to retrieve a wheel that's come loose (only happend twice during a match)

4) A small halogen lamp assembly on a flex gooseneck as an option to place above the target box. The worse mess is always the lighting of the targets. If our current lamps are on the floor there is a wide shadow (1/4" or so) across the bottom of the target .... Ceiling mounted lamps cast the shadow across the top ... Attached lamps would be a very small bit of hassle when moving the targets and provide more uniform lighting.

5) As an option ... a small spool to roll up the cord ... when you have kids and 15m cables .... you get tangles.

All in all the NM shooters really like the Targetworx traps. When I borrow a few to bring to our range, it's a treat for the kids to shoot on these.

[Sparks]

We have had a few requests for wireless remotes. There are two problems, cost and cross talk. The idea behind our machines was to keep the cost down. Adding wireless will add significant cost. In addition, when you put 10,20, or like at the NRA's nationals 75 points on one line, the chance of one shooters button controlling anothers target is there. This can be taken care of with digital coding but then that add's even more expense.

Or, you could use a cheap laser diode to give a laser link to the target changer. It could be as simple as a photocell on the target changer that turns on the motor when the laser shines on it, or it could be as complicated as a digital communications channel. All you have to do is to securely mount the control end of things so the laser only hits the appropriate target box and you won't get any crosstalk, and if you use a cheap diode circuit, the cost isn't that much.

[Thomas Monto]

I think we are getting off the origional subject matter somewhat, however, in the case of lighting for the target system. I use a halogin light.

Take 1/2" conduit, bend at one end just less than 90 degrees (You can adjust it) stick the small bent end end into the tube that holds the target system. Wire tie the light and cord to the long end. Works for standing. If you want a system that is adjustable with the target box. Cut a piece of hardwood. Put a hole slightly larger than the pole, another the same as the conduit. You can adjust it along with the target. The weight from the lamp at the end of the conduit binds the wood on the pole to keep it from slipping. If you have trouble with it slipping cut the pole hole a little smaller and drill and tap the hardwood for a course threaded thumb screw.

To get new target rolls started, cut the paper at a 45 degree angle and feed down the slot it will not catch on the bottom slot opening.

Works for me

The only complaint with the target holder is that it is messy. Paper and some pellets on the floor. To prevent pellets from spilling when the backstop is removed, I placed nylon tape between the backstop and collection plate. This keeps the pellets from spilling out the ends.
TM