Rapid Fire AP - one more time...

[TomF]

Does ANYONE in the USA make or stock ISSF 10m Five Shot Air Pistol Targets? And I am not talking about paper.

And does ANYONE in the USA actually shoot this event?

Thanks!

Tom

[IPshooter]

Does ANYONE in the USA make or stock ISSF 10m Five Shot Air Pistol Targets? And I am not talking about paper.

And does ANYONE in the USA actually shoot this event?

Thanks!

Tom

Tom,

If you're referring to the Air Pistol Five Target Event (5 falling targets), I don't know of anyone making these targets in the USA. They're not hard to build, but I suspect the manufacturers are waiting for a market.

Also, I don't know of anyone shooting the event in the USA. The reason would be that it hasn't been added to the USAS rule book yet. And, until that happens, it's hard to expect anyone to pursue it vigorously.

BTW, the Air Pistol Standard Event is even easier to get into. It uses the current Air Pistol paper target.

Stan

[TomF]

That is what I am doing now, shooting the standard event. But heck, thats no fun!

I have discussed building a steel falling plate target and it is a very simple design if you dont include electronics. There is nothing magic about the electronics, but I am too lazy to put one together just for a practice target.

I have found a few in Europe, but when I inquired, there are no importers in the USA and it is cheaper to build them here than import them.

With the paper targets I use a programable shot timer set for 3 second ready and 10 second interval. It works fine.

Next I am going to just put up paper targets on a couple of 2x2 frames 54" wide and set the centers 300mm apart. That way I can shoot 10 or 20 relays on the five targets with the same motion and timing as the falling plates. A poor mans falling plates rack.

[David Levene]

I have found a few in Europe, but when I inquired, there are no importers in the USA and it is cheaper to build them here than import them.

As our hosts are listing the Rika LP5 system on their web site I am sure they could get one for you. Make sure that you order the ISSF 30mm inserts though. The match is too easy with 40 mm inserts.

Next I am going to just put up paper targets on a couple of 2x2 frames 54" wide and set the centers 300mm apart. That way I can shoot 10 or 20 relays on the five targets with the same motion and timing as the falling plates. A poor mans falling plates rack.

Shooting on paper targets takes away one of the most important parts of the 5 target event, the instant feedback. If you put a shot into the 9 ring on each of the first 4 paper AP targets then there is no additional pressure for the 5th shot. Try doing the same thing a few times with falling targets where you know that one more good shot will give you a perfect series. Another big difference is that paper targets do not draw spectators, falling targets do.

[TomF]

The rika is way too expensive. I have already spoken to Warren about it.

As for instant feedback, it is your enemy. If you are waiting for feedback you are not concentrating on making your shots. I shoot rimfire and centerfire falling plates, six 8" plates at 22 yds, so I know how to shoot plates. If you are looking for the plates to fall, you will lose every time. On a good run I can clean the plates in about 2.5 seconds starting with the muzzle on the table when the timer goes off. At that speed with a .22, the last two plates are still falling after the last shot is fired. So the instant feedback is highly over-rated, as well as distracting.

The rapid fire ap is much harder because you have such a small scoring area. So if you start waiting for instant feedback, you are out of the money!

The only advantage is after you are finished, you get instant feedback on what you have done. But with paper you can look in a scope and see where you hit. Poor mans instant feedback.

I agree paper is not as fun, which is why I want a proper target set, but for practice it will do just fine.

[David Levene]

As for instant feedback, it is your enemy. If you are waiting for feedback you are not concentrating on making your shots.

You are correct but missing the point. In the real ISSF match you don't have any option, you WILL have the instant feedback whether you want it or not. That is what makes it harder than just shooting 9s on paper targets. You have to learn to enjoy it or ignore it.

Shooting the match without that feedback after every shot is removing a major factor and creating a much easier match.

[TomF]

I got the point. You have the instant feeback but you better be totally ignoring it if you want to win.

Do you wait to see if you scored on the shot before you go to the next shot. Not me. If you do, you break your concentration. You should be spending the time you are looking at the last shot and use it to move and aim at the next shot.

Instant feed back tells you that you hit a plate. That is your job anyway. If you miss, what are you going to do about it??? The shot is gone, move on, and quickly. Dont think about hits and misses. Concentrate on the shot at hand.

Your right it is harder, that is why you need to keep your concentration on the shot you have and hit the center, instead of waiting for feeback on the last shot. Concentration is paramount because you have so little time to acquire your target and get off a good shot.

Ten seconds is lots of time, but you actually dont have two seconds per shot. Your first shot will take at least 3 and you dont necessarily build speed with each shot. So that instant feeback is only going to break your rhythm if you dont keep your eye on the prize.

Then after you are done shooting, you get the instant feedback of the shot string.

In the absence of a set of plates, five paper targets set at the correct spacing is the best alternative to practice with to become proficient.

Now what am I missing?

[David Levene]

Now what am I missing?

The fact that you have got to learn to ignore the targets falling.

If you want to shoot 10 second strings on paper targets then fine, I hope you enjoy it. If you think it is the equivalent, or even a reasonable simulation, of the real match then I believe you are deluding yourself.

Why do you think the ISSF chose falling targets instead of the paper turning targets they had previously specified for the "Provisional Rules" air rapid match.

[pilkguns]

"who is shooting this"

I don't really know of any organized matches for this, other than the one that we host at the Bianchi Cup each year, and the fun match for cash that we do at USASNC (daily winner takes half the entry fees).

And we are using the real falling plates.

[David Levene]

I don't really know of any organized matches for this, other than the one that we host at the Bianchi Cup each year, and the fun match for cash that we do at USASNC (daily winner takes half the entry fees).

That is a shame. Virtually all of the major meetings here in the UK, or the ones held at Bisley anyway, include the 5 Target match (on falling targets) as well as the 10m Air Pistol Standard match (which we shoot on turning targets instead of the specified stationary ones).

[TomF]

Now what am I missing?

The fact that you have got to learn to ignore the targets falling.

YES! I have acknowledged that! I have stated that over and over! Yes, you have to ignore the falling plates!

And practicing with paper is a great way to start. I dont have a target set to practice on! And I want to be able to shoot this when we get a set! So my only option is to shoot paper. What do you suggest I do? Wait?

Do I wait to sight in my deer rifle when a big buck steps out in front of me? Hell no! So why should I wait to practice until I get a set of plates?

If you go to the top and read my first post, I am looking to buy a set. And I am not paying $1000+ to get a set of plates to practice on. It looks like I will end up building my own.

Now stop this nonsense about deluding myself. I am not. I understand. I shoot plates all the time and I am damn good at it. Which is why I want to shoot it with AP, I want the challenge.

By the same logic, you must not believe in dry firing either.

[TomF]

"who is shooting this"

I don't really know of any organized matches for this, other than the one that we host at the Bianchi Cup each year, and the fun match for cash that we do at USASNC (daily winner takes half the entry fees).

And we are using the real falling plates.

Have you looked at importing some target sets? Other than Rika.

Our club has looked into getting some built and Mike Stimson spoke with either Scott or Warren about possibly marketing his target sets.

We have a standing order for three sets when Mike feels like he can stop building broadband towers and start building steel targets again. He estimated about $350 without electronics.

I know there is no competition here in the USA yet, but we have enough interested parties here in Texas that we would like to start asap.

[F. Paul in Denver]

TomF,

Here in Denver we have a winter international league. Both standard air and 5 shot rapid air are part of the program which also include CF, sport pistol, standard pistol, rapid fire, military rapid fire, APand free pistol.

Most of us feel that there is good reason to believe that these two air events will eventually become more popular and may even become part of the Olympic program at some point. Reactive targets are definitely more spectator friendly.


Paul

[Richard H]

It's shot at the Canadian Airgun Grand Prix in Toronto. I know it's not the US but at least its North America. It was also shot at the Nationals in Edmonton AB in 2004 didn't go this year so I don't know.

[TomF]

TomF,

Here in Denver we have a winter international league. Both standard air and 5 shot rapid air are part of the program which also include CF, sport pistol, standard pistol, rapid fire, military rapid fire, APand free pistol.

Most of us feel that there is good reason to believe that these two air events will eventually become more popular and may even become part of the Olympic program at some point. Reactive targets are definitely more spectator friendly.


Paul

Who made the 5 shot targets you use and where did you buy them?

Thanks,

Tom

[Ian Harris]

There's a guy in Scotland making a target frame largely out of plastic that's holding up well to repeated use - cost in the Uk is 150 pounds sterling at the moment.
PM me if you'd like his email address.

--
Ian Harris

[j-team]

You should all be ashamed of yourselves.

By promoting the 5 shot air pistol matches you are just speeding up the demise of cartridge semi auto events from th olympic program.

Look what happened to 50m running target.

[David Levene]

By promoting the 5 shot air pistol matches you are just speeding up the demise of cartridge semi auto events from th olympic program.

I fear that you may be right but seeing as the current matches have been with us for nearly 5 years, and we had the "Provisional" matches for 4 years before then, the uptake rate does not suggest any imminent danger.

[F. Paul in Denver]

Speeding up the demise vs. simply preparing for the inevitable - it's just a matter of perspective. What did anyone do to speed up the demise of that other lost Olympic event called standard pistol??

No one would be more disappointed than the group of people in my international league to see any more cuts in the shooting events. But we are all a realistic bunch as well.


Tom, the two falling plate targets we use were each built by two club members. One of them is a target talk member - RobertM.

Robert just came back from the CAT games - I'll let him know you may want more info.

F. Paul in Denver

[David Levene]

What did anyone do to speed up the demise of that other lost Olympic event called standard pistol??

???

When was Standard Pistol an Olympic event?