I'm saving some money to buy a FWB 603 air rifle. I've noticed that almost every match grade air rifle comes with "laminated wood" stocks among other options. What are the advantages of using laminated wood instead of say walnut, beech or others?
BTW what are your opinions on this rifle? I decided for it because it has it's own air supply, no need for refilling anything.
Thanks for any input.
ADVANTAGE OF LAMIINATED WOOD STOCK
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963, David Levene, Spencer
-
1813benny
- Posts: 330
- Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 6:03 pm
- Location: state of total consciousness
- Contact:
laminated wood
the advantage of a laminate stock is the resistance to distortion due to climate changes, especially moisture while maintaining the feel of tradition wood.
a pure wood stock can distort or warp due to humidity changes, and that can definately affect accuracy, even if glass bedded. protecting a wood stock by properly sealing it is beneficial, but not always a 100% solution.
a laminated stock consists of layers of wood and resin. a good laminate stock will even have the grain of the wood running in different directions between the layers, further minimizing distortion such that if one layer wants to move in one direction, it has to fight several other layers that either don't want to move at all or that they want to move in a different direction, possibly cancelling each other out.
laminated stock also typically are slightly heavier than a pure wood stock due to the additional weight from the density of the resins use to manufacture. hope this helps.
a pure wood stock can distort or warp due to humidity changes, and that can definately affect accuracy, even if glass bedded. protecting a wood stock by properly sealing it is beneficial, but not always a 100% solution.
a laminated stock consists of layers of wood and resin. a good laminate stock will even have the grain of the wood running in different directions between the layers, further minimizing distortion such that if one layer wants to move in one direction, it has to fight several other layers that either don't want to move at all or that they want to move in a different direction, possibly cancelling each other out.
laminated stock also typically are slightly heavier than a pure wood stock due to the additional weight from the density of the resins use to manufacture. hope this helps.
Laminated stock are cheaper for the manufactuers to produce vs. high qualty solid walnut.
If laminates were so good one who think Anschutz would have switched over but has not done so with all the match rifle models.
Does anyone have an objective set of data and analysis from an independent test lab to corroborate this "laminates are more accurate" claim?
If laminates were so good one who think Anschutz would have switched over but has not done so with all the match rifle models.
Does anyone have an objective set of data and analysis from an independent test lab to corroborate this "laminates are more accurate" claim?
-
Guest
If they’re cheaper to manufacture, than why is it a costly option to get a laminate stock vs. solid walnut from a custom stock maker, IE masterclass etc...
Also, my 2013 has a factory laminate stock, obviously anschutz saw some potential to make a production laminate stock. While FWB was using primarily laminate stocks on the 2600s before they discontinued the wood with the 2700s.
While my laminate stock weighs a ton, I really don’t see any advantage to the stock material other than the fact that it is not nearly as sensitive to compression as, lets say, my birch walther stock... In fact, it shoots very well torqued well beyond the rule of thumb for wooden stocks.
Also, my 2013 has a factory laminate stock, obviously anschutz saw some potential to make a production laminate stock. While FWB was using primarily laminate stocks on the 2600s before they discontinued the wood with the 2700s.
While my laminate stock weighs a ton, I really don’t see any advantage to the stock material other than the fact that it is not nearly as sensitive to compression as, lets say, my birch walther stock... In fact, it shoots very well torqued well beyond the rule of thumb for wooden stocks.
-
Jose Rossy
- Posts: 414
- Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 8:17 am
- Location: Troy, Ohio, USA
Since when is that a bad thing?Jim E wrote:Laminated stock are cheaper for the manufactuers to produce vs. high qualty solid walnut.
Plywood laminate is an engineered wood product. That means it does not suffer the effects of supply and demand on pricing to the extent that gunstock quality walnut does.
Also, rifle manufacturers do not make the wood laminate. They buy the blanks from Rutland Plywood (in the US) and route them in the same exact equipment (probably the same exact jigs) as walnut blanks. The labor cost to make a stock out of a laminate blank is identical to that of walnut. Only the material cost is less, and that lesser cost is not due to ANY technical inferiority of the laminate.
Glad you substantiated the claim that laminated wood products are less espensive then high quality solid walnut products.
Just to be clear I did not say laminates were a bad thing, less accurate, or inferior to solid wood stocks (beech or walnut for example) ... just less expensive material.
In the meantime still waiting for the independent lab results conducted by someone other then those who manufacture the rifles to objectively demonstrate measurable improvement in accuracy.
Some like blondes. Some like redheads. I like solid walnut stocks.
Just to be clear I did not say laminates were a bad thing, less accurate, or inferior to solid wood stocks (beech or walnut for example) ... just less expensive material.
In the meantime still waiting for the independent lab results conducted by someone other then those who manufacture the rifles to objectively demonstrate measurable improvement in accuracy.
Some like blondes. Some like redheads. I like solid walnut stocks.
-
Jose Rossy
- Posts: 414
- Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 8:17 am
- Location: Troy, Ohio, USA
They are less expensive and perform as well or better than the finest walnut. Laminates just don't look as good.Jim E wrote:Glad you substantiated the claim that laminated wood products are less espensive then high quality solid walnut products.
Just to be clear I did not say laminates were a bad thing, less accurate, or inferior to solid wood stocks (beech or walnut for example) ... just less expensive material.
In the meantime still waiting for the independent lab results conducted by someone other then those who manufacture the rifles to objectively demonstrate measurable improvement in accuracy.
Some like blondes. Some like redheads. I like solid walnut stocks.
No one here has claimed that laminated wood stocks are inherently more accurate (or make the rifle so). What has been claimed is that laminated woods are more resistant to warping due to their layered construction and resin impregnation.
You may choose not to believe so, absent some level of proof. That is up to you.
Re: I agree - much better looking
Yeah but if you hit the prev and next buttons through all the rest of the photo's only 1 other picture shows a Walnut rifle stock. All the rest are Laminate or Aluminum. That's close enough to scientific for me.
There must be something to them; if walnut really was superior the majority of stocks would still be made from the.
FWIW I like the look of contrasting colors on the laminate stocks. Not only that, but last April a friend of my wifes came out to watch my daughter shoot. She thought her Anschutz 2002 CA with the blue laminate stock looked beautiful and said that the guns were much better looking than the old brown and black ones here dad had.
I have not said walnut is superior to the other stocks in terms of their accuracy. Whether the popularity of non-solid stocks are proof of greater accuracy, or proof of more successful marketing to sell products, is for the buyer to determine.
I have said, to me, walnut is more attractive then laminates. Naturally if a person invested in a laminated or metal stock, one should expect them to defend their purchase/preference. Having confidence in your equipment is essential to successful shooting.
I still wait for the independent labratory results to prove one is more accurate.
To each his own, best wishes and good shooting.
I have said, to me, walnut is more attractive then laminates. Naturally if a person invested in a laminated or metal stock, one should expect them to defend their purchase/preference. Having confidence in your equipment is essential to successful shooting.
I still wait for the independent labratory results to prove one is more accurate.
To each his own, best wishes and good shooting.
-
1813benny
- Posts: 330
- Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 6:03 pm
- Location: state of total consciousness
- Contact:
Independent labratory results to prove one is more accurate..that is very unlikely to ever happen. The stock is just part of a shooting SYSTEM and only plays a part in overall accuracy.
It is a "no-brainer" that world class rifles have been built with all varieties of stock material, from beautiful walnut blanks, to fiberglass, laminates of all varieties and finally the current flavor of choice...aluminum.
Any action can be mated to any stock and made to shoot well. It's just a matter of what extent you want to go to make that happen. Most top shooting wood stocks are glass bedded for a reason, and that is to make the area supporting the action more stable. This becomes less of an issue with laminates and, to some extent, eliminated with the aluminum stocks. Yes, every experienced shooter on this board can give exceptions to the rule such as a glass bedded aluminum stock, etc., but that just goes back to the point that you gotta do what you gotta do in order to make a rifle shoot to the level that you are able to compete.
What it boils down to is one word. Consistency. That is competitive smallbore shooting's fundamental element in the quest for precision. Different stock materials are inherently more consistent from one day to the next, which is critical to shooters who want to concentrate on performance rather than equipment worries.
In closing, my smallbore rifle is a walnut stocked 1813 with a paper thin coating of glass bedding. Snuggled next to it in the safe is a laminated FWB 601 air rifle, so I clearly have no predisposition on stock material choice.
It is a "no-brainer" that world class rifles have been built with all varieties of stock material, from beautiful walnut blanks, to fiberglass, laminates of all varieties and finally the current flavor of choice...aluminum.
Any action can be mated to any stock and made to shoot well. It's just a matter of what extent you want to go to make that happen. Most top shooting wood stocks are glass bedded for a reason, and that is to make the area supporting the action more stable. This becomes less of an issue with laminates and, to some extent, eliminated with the aluminum stocks. Yes, every experienced shooter on this board can give exceptions to the rule such as a glass bedded aluminum stock, etc., but that just goes back to the point that you gotta do what you gotta do in order to make a rifle shoot to the level that you are able to compete.
What it boils down to is one word. Consistency. That is competitive smallbore shooting's fundamental element in the quest for precision. Different stock materials are inherently more consistent from one day to the next, which is critical to shooters who want to concentrate on performance rather than equipment worries.
In closing, my smallbore rifle is a walnut stocked 1813 with a paper thin coating of glass bedding. Snuggled next to it in the safe is a laminated FWB 601 air rifle, so I clearly have no predisposition on stock material choice.
-
Jose Rossy
- Posts: 414
- Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 8:17 am
- Location: Troy, Ohio, USA
Ditto. My walnut stocked 1411 sits next to a laminate stocked Model 70 and an aluminum "stocked" AR15 highpower target rifles.1813benny wrote:In closing, my smallbore rifle is a walnut stocked 1813 with a paper thin coating of glass bedding. Snuggled next to it in the safe is a laminated FWB 601 air rifle, so I clearly have no predisposition on stock material choice.
-
mikeschroeder
- Posts: 488
- Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 10:56 am
- Location: Kansas
Hi
I don't understand why no Olympic quality air rifle manufacturers have come out with a Fiberglass stocked air rifle. Most centerfire rifle manufacturers have built them for years. I would think that fiberglass would be the cheapest of the ways to build a stock. Guess not. I like the way Walnut looks, but I haven't had to change the sights on my .22-250 Varmit (Synthetic stocked) rifle in 12 years...... Still 2 inches high at 100 yards.
Mike
Wichita KS
I don't understand why no Olympic quality air rifle manufacturers have come out with a Fiberglass stocked air rifle. Most centerfire rifle manufacturers have built them for years. I would think that fiberglass would be the cheapest of the ways to build a stock. Guess not. I like the way Walnut looks, but I haven't had to change the sights on my .22-250 Varmit (Synthetic stocked) rifle in 12 years...... Still 2 inches high at 100 yards.
Mike
Wichita KS
-
Jose Rossy
- Posts: 414
- Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 8:17 am
- Location: Troy, Ohio, USA
Mike, wood stocks are FAR easier to make than the same in fiberglass. Wood stocks can be plopped on a CNC router and roughed/finished/inletted/stippled/checkered in a matter of minutes, with human intervention needed maybe only to load and unload material off the routers. Dip in oil or spray lacquer on for finishing and run through a drying oven and you're done.
Fiberglass stocks are made by hand, using layers of epoxy resin-impregnated glass fiber cloth in a mold where the gelcoat has already been sprayed. The hollow sections are filled with structural foam. There is no machine available, that I know of, that will build a FG stock to equal the quality of something made by Master Class Stocks or McMillan.
Fiberglass stocks are made by hand, using layers of epoxy resin-impregnated glass fiber cloth in a mold where the gelcoat has already been sprayed. The hollow sections are filled with structural foam. There is no machine available, that I know of, that will build a FG stock to equal the quality of something made by Master Class Stocks or McMillan.