I'm just curious as to how often people abort a shot ? The reason I ask is that one of the things I've heard a number of times is that one of the big differences between top shooters and those who are just good, is that they know when not to let the shot go. I know that I don't abort all that often maybe as little as 3 or 4 times in a 10M AP match, that said though I don't release too many error shots but I do do them in most matches. By the latter I mean hold too long, accept aiming errors etc. So over to you....
Rob.
How often do you abort a shot ?
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Steve Swartz
Rob:
This is (unsurprisingly) another one of those things that I take data on and occasionally ponder over.
When I am in a string that is "in the zone," I'll deliver 22 or so shots and abort maybe once during the string.
When my planets aren't aligning, my string will only last 8 shots or so and I'll abort probably an equal or greater number of times.
My abort rate is one of my decision criteria for breaking position and starting over.
Steve Swartz
This is (unsurprisingly) another one of those things that I take data on and occasionally ponder over.
When I am in a string that is "in the zone," I'll deliver 22 or so shots and abort maybe once during the string.
When my planets aren't aligning, my string will only last 8 shots or so and I'll abort probably an equal or greater number of times.
My abort rate is one of my decision criteria for breaking position and starting over.
Steve Swartz
More than I used to. Still not often enough. I am getting better at it though.
I had the pleasure twice now of watching a High Master shoot and I scored his 100/100 slowfire targets. One was Gallery league 50' SF, and just last Saturday, a 50 yd SF with his 45. Each time he raised his gun and held without firing several times on that last shot. I can only imagine his thoughts. I have yet to score a SF 100. And I only have one match SF 99 (gallery) so far.
I had the pleasure twice now of watching a High Master shoot and I scored his 100/100 slowfire targets. One was Gallery league 50' SF, and just last Saturday, a 50 yd SF with his 45. Each time he raised his gun and held without firing several times on that last shot. I can only imagine his thoughts. I have yet to score a SF 100. And I only have one match SF 99 (gallery) so far.
Aborting a shot is one of the hardest things to do for new shooters. There is the tendency to hang on a bit longer waiting for the sight picture to get better.
While the sight picture might improve, you will fatigue, your vision might blur and eventually you will get the shakes and pull a 9. ;-)
In my case it is usually a 6 or 7.
Like Steve, I sometimes find that I can string together lots of shots without having to abort but other times have to back out every two or three shots for a while.
Monday night I backed out only once and posted close to my personal best. Other times it is a real battle. The secret of being a top shooter is winning the mental battle and if that means acknowledging that everything is not 100 percent right and aborting a shot, so be it.
While the sight picture might improve, you will fatigue, your vision might blur and eventually you will get the shakes and pull a 9. ;-)
In my case it is usually a 6 or 7.
Like Steve, I sometimes find that I can string together lots of shots without having to abort but other times have to back out every two or three shots for a while.
Monday night I backed out only once and posted close to my personal best. Other times it is a real battle. The secret of being a top shooter is winning the mental battle and if that means acknowledging that everything is not 100 percent right and aborting a shot, so be it.
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Mike Taylor
- Posts: 212
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 4:03 pm
- Location: Okanagan Valley, British Columbia
Aborting a shot
Aborting a shot six times or even 30 times might be OK for 10-metre air pistol or 50-metre free pistol, but you can't get away with that in the 150 seconds of a Standard Pistol slow-fire series.
I figure I can abort once in the 150 seconds without causing myself mental concern. I probably could afford to do it twice, but if I do, then I usually get panicky about the time remaining, particularly if there is less than 20 seconds left and I still have one round to fire. If I abort twice, I find I rush my remaining shots, to my detriment. I rationalize that it is better for me to hang in there and accept the (poor) shot I would prefer to have aborted than to abort and then rush the remaining shots. That is, better one bad shot than two (or three).
I figure I can abort once in the 150 seconds without causing myself mental concern. I probably could afford to do it twice, but if I do, then I usually get panicky about the time remaining, particularly if there is less than 20 seconds left and I still have one round to fire. If I abort twice, I find I rush my remaining shots, to my detriment. I rationalize that it is better for me to hang in there and accept the (poor) shot I would prefer to have aborted than to abort and then rush the remaining shots. That is, better one bad shot than two (or three).
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utmarksmann
stop of firing procedure
Yes, Mike, I agree with you.
One "start over again" during a 150 second standard match is ok, but after 2 or even 3 I am starting to feel some tension of fear of running out of time.
My number of abortions grows whenever the last shot(s) of a particularly good score string is about to be fullfilled!
An instructor from the former East Germany once told me that the number of abortions were an indication of the skill/concentration of a competitor. Their shooters were drilled to fire every shot after exactly the same number of seconds of aiming (relatively short period).
I think a high number of abortions is negative, indicating the competitor is struggling more than he should.
One "start over again" during a 150 second standard match is ok, but after 2 or even 3 I am starting to feel some tension of fear of running out of time.
My number of abortions grows whenever the last shot(s) of a particularly good score string is about to be fullfilled!
An instructor from the former East Germany once told me that the number of abortions were an indication of the skill/concentration of a competitor. Their shooters were drilled to fire every shot after exactly the same number of seconds of aiming (relatively short period).
I think a high number of abortions is negative, indicating the competitor is struggling more than he should.
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Pär Hylander
- Posts: 35
- Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2004 5:16 pm
- Location: Sweden
But we are never going to be perfect 100% (or even 90%) of the time. The acquired skill is spotting that and coming down and trying again. It may be distraction, mental or otherwise, loss of technique etc. If you or I were shooting only tens then I'd agree aborting wasn't to be strived for but until then every non ten is potentially a poor shot and 'could' have become a ten. One of the other posters on here comments that an aborted shot is a potential ten remaining in the gun.Pär Hylander wrote:As I see it, aborting shots is absolutely nothing to strive for. If you have to abort a shot, then the preparations bofore the shot was not good enough.
As for the standard aborted shots - if you are running out of time then shoot two or even three shots as per the 20sec string. From my observations the 150 sec string isn't that much better than the 20 or even 10 so doing so won't be a disaster and is better than shooting through that over hold wobble we all get.
Rob.
The truth may be something else
I do agree with:
Later when I want to shoot and the shot does not brake within 8 - 12 sek it does not feel as time is running out at all and I can avoid stress.
Perhaps I am not the only one with this behavior?
Kent
For me it works like this. I go up some time with NO intention to fire a shot. Just to stay on target for some time 30 sec.As I see it, aborting shots is absolutely nothing to strive for. If you have to abort a shot, then the preparations before the shot was not good enough.
Later when I want to shoot and the shot does not brake within 8 - 12 sek it does not feel as time is running out at all and I can avoid stress.
Perhaps I am not the only one with this behavior?
Kent
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F. Pau in Denver
It figures that the two Swedes would agree!! Just kidding guys.
I agree that striving for aborting shots is not a goal - I've never heard someone winning a match by outnumbering everyone elses aborted shots.
BUT - I do believe aborting shots is necessary for most of us who dont execute our shot plan precisely they way we determine we should each and every time. I believe that while you should not strive for aborted shots - you must certainly should not avoid them.
I think Rob Stubbs advice re standard pistol is right on the money. When you are running out of precision time - start practicing your twenty second strings - your're gonna have to shoot them anyway! Doing so is alot better than trying to deal with the distraction of worrying about running out of time into your precision shot plan.
tack själv and fåravel
F. Paul in Denver
I agree that striving for aborting shots is not a goal - I've never heard someone winning a match by outnumbering everyone elses aborted shots.
BUT - I do believe aborting shots is necessary for most of us who dont execute our shot plan precisely they way we determine we should each and every time. I believe that while you should not strive for aborted shots - you must certainly should not avoid them.
I think Rob Stubbs advice re standard pistol is right on the money. When you are running out of precision time - start practicing your twenty second strings - your're gonna have to shoot them anyway! Doing so is alot better than trying to deal with the distraction of worrying about running out of time into your precision shot plan.
tack själv and fåravel
F. Paul in Denver
I was given some very good advice once. "never accept a bad shot"
In theroy this sounds simple. In practice very hard.
Another shooter who once was on the US team many years ago used to practice aborting shots so when the time came, like in a final, you need to abort a shot you can and not get excited about how little time you have left.
I think this is one of key points which seperates a 560's shooter from a 570's shooter.
I think the ability to abort a shot is very important skill to have in your tools box. I know I wish I was better at it.
A well trained top notch performer should be able to shoot a match with minimal amorts. In theory this sounds good. This would allow you to expend the lest amount of energy and would show you were prepared for the match and training was effective. Like a shooting machine.
Would shooting lots of rapid fire help reduce the number of aborts in slow fire if you can learn not to try and make it too perfect?
In theroy this sounds simple. In practice very hard.
Another shooter who once was on the US team many years ago used to practice aborting shots so when the time came, like in a final, you need to abort a shot you can and not get excited about how little time you have left.
I think this is one of key points which seperates a 560's shooter from a 570's shooter.
I think the ability to abort a shot is very important skill to have in your tools box. I know I wish I was better at it.
A well trained top notch performer should be able to shoot a match with minimal amorts. In theory this sounds good. This would allow you to expend the lest amount of energy and would show you were prepared for the match and training was effective. Like a shooting machine.
Would shooting lots of rapid fire help reduce the number of aborts in slow fire if you can learn not to try and make it too perfect?
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Pär Hylander
- Posts: 35
- Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2004 5:16 pm
- Location: Sweden
haha ;-)F. Pau in Denver wrote:It figures that the two Swedes would agree!! Just kidding guys.
tack själv and fåravel
F. Paul in Denver
Well, of course even I, a 100% RFP-guy, agree that if a shot it going wrong, it is correct to abort if that possibility is availible (in a 4-sec series it is not... ;-)) However, my point that I tried to stress, but probably missed perhaps by my bad english, is that aborting shots is a sort of rescue plan, not a goal itself.
[OT mode on]
Intresting sentence, "tack själv" is correct swedish, the words translates as "thanks" and "yourself". Får-avel can be translated as "sheep" and "breeding" ;-) Perhaps farväl is the intended word, which translates as "goodbye" today, actually it is and old word that translates as "travell safely". And translates to "och"
Tack själv och farväl!
Pär
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Guest
One mental training book describes a concept of the green, yellow, and red traffic lights. The green light means everything is OK, proceed. Yellow means caution. Red means stop.
As Steve Swartz describes when he is in the zone, he can fire many shots without aborting. This would be the green light.
Other times, we get a signal, a distraction, a slight feeling of fatigue, an off balance feeling, sights not quite lined up... All of these could be slight yellow, caution signals. The point is that you are heading to the red light.
Almost everyone will stop on the red light; that indicates something really negative and we pretty much know to stop and regroup.
The key point in the book was to recognize the yellow signals and take corrective actions before you go to the red light zone. Having to abort a shot while still in the yellow, before the red is good.
The red light zone should not be confused with a red light district.
As Steve Swartz describes when he is in the zone, he can fire many shots without aborting. This would be the green light.
Other times, we get a signal, a distraction, a slight feeling of fatigue, an off balance feeling, sights not quite lined up... All of these could be slight yellow, caution signals. The point is that you are heading to the red light.
Almost everyone will stop on the red light; that indicates something really negative and we pretty much know to stop and regroup.
The key point in the book was to recognize the yellow signals and take corrective actions before you go to the red light zone. Having to abort a shot while still in the yellow, before the red is good.
The red light zone should not be confused with a red light district.
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F. Paul in Denver
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Pär Hylander
- Posts: 35
- Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2004 5:16 pm
- Location: Sweden
[/quote]Anonymous wrote:[aborting shots is a sort of rescue plan, not a goal itself.
quote]
Pär Hylander
I think you are conveying that it is a negative to abort a shot.
Surely aborting is the positive thing to do if you are unsure and have negative premonitions of it outcome.
No, thats not the way i meant, I´m sure I shoot better than I write in english ;-) Or in swedish, jag är säker på att jag skjuter bättre än jag skriver på engelska ;-))
I think that Pete's desription with the vauries coulors is usefull. I think that training to abort shots is like training for what to do when you are standing behind the red light. This is of course a good thing to do when you are there. BUT, you should not confuse your mind by letting it think that standing behind the red light is the normal thing. Instead passing through the green light at warpspeed is how it should be :-)
the book
The book that has the Green, Yellow, & Red light analogy is:
Heads-Up Baseball : Playing the Game One Pitch at a Time
by Tom Hanson, Ken Ravizza
ISBN: 1570280215
Amazon has it.
The book is about baseball, but baseball played one pitch at a time or shooting a match one shot at a time is very similar.
It is my favorite book on mental training, is simple and basic, with real ideas and tools, not just babble.
Heads-Up Baseball : Playing the Game One Pitch at a Time
by Tom Hanson, Ken Ravizza
ISBN: 1570280215
Amazon has it.
The book is about baseball, but baseball played one pitch at a time or shooting a match one shot at a time is very similar.
It is my favorite book on mental training, is simple and basic, with real ideas and tools, not just babble.
And then....??
I've been thinking about this topic, and I wonder if there isn't more to it than just "how often". Specifically, I wonder what goes through other shooters' minds immediately following an aborted shot.
For example, I realized that what I have been doing/thinking is to analyze what felt "wrong" about the shot process, and why I couldn't obtain a timely clean release. Then I would try to prime myself to take positive remedial action on the retry, e.g. "be aggressive on the trigger."
The results of this have been dismal. I find myself trying over and over to get off the originally-aborted shot, or, in the above example, pressing too hard on the trigger so it releases early.
I have just started to think that maybe I shouldn't even consider the retry as a "retry", i.e. another attempt to release the "same" shot. Perhaps the key is to simply forget about the aborted attempt, and start completely fresh mentally, a brand new shot, following my original shot plan, with no attempted compensation(s) for the previous abort. So far, it's been hard to do this.
I would appreciate hearing what all the above self-confessed shot aborters do AFTER they abort a shot.
Thanks,
FredB
For example, I realized that what I have been doing/thinking is to analyze what felt "wrong" about the shot process, and why I couldn't obtain a timely clean release. Then I would try to prime myself to take positive remedial action on the retry, e.g. "be aggressive on the trigger."
The results of this have been dismal. I find myself trying over and over to get off the originally-aborted shot, or, in the above example, pressing too hard on the trigger so it releases early.
I have just started to think that maybe I shouldn't even consider the retry as a "retry", i.e. another attempt to release the "same" shot. Perhaps the key is to simply forget about the aborted attempt, and start completely fresh mentally, a brand new shot, following my original shot plan, with no attempted compensation(s) for the previous abort. So far, it's been hard to do this.
I would appreciate hearing what all the above self-confessed shot aborters do AFTER they abort a shot.
Thanks,
FredB
Fred,
When I abort a shot I often get a small feeling of dissapointment in not having released the shot. I do however try and focus on the fact that it would have been a poor shot and there's a good one left in the gun (in theory) - i.e. keep positive. I do however completely ignore the fact that I'm having a second (or third etc..) try because that is irrelevant and makes you treat that shot differently than all the others. The shot process is exactly the same as for any other shot. If you have trouble with the process then try putting the gun down and starting from scratch as per any other shot.
Like most things this is an area where training helps. Likewise familiarity with the aborts and the mental feelings that come from doing so. If you practice aborting, it becomes second nature and more importantly it will have fewer negative mental associations.
As mentioned in earlier postings, it is an area where new shooters have a big problem. There is a perceived problem associated with not releasing the shot on the first attempt and it takes a long time for that to be overcome. If you watch new or more inexperienced shooters you will probably see no aborts - but I would bet they can tell you about the technically bad shots they had, when they held too long etc.
Rob.
When I abort a shot I often get a small feeling of dissapointment in not having released the shot. I do however try and focus on the fact that it would have been a poor shot and there's a good one left in the gun (in theory) - i.e. keep positive. I do however completely ignore the fact that I'm having a second (or third etc..) try because that is irrelevant and makes you treat that shot differently than all the others. The shot process is exactly the same as for any other shot. If you have trouble with the process then try putting the gun down and starting from scratch as per any other shot.
Like most things this is an area where training helps. Likewise familiarity with the aborts and the mental feelings that come from doing so. If you practice aborting, it becomes second nature and more importantly it will have fewer negative mental associations.
As mentioned in earlier postings, it is an area where new shooters have a big problem. There is a perceived problem associated with not releasing the shot on the first attempt and it takes a long time for that to be overcome. If you watch new or more inexperienced shooters you will probably see no aborts - but I would bet they can tell you about the technically bad shots they had, when they held too long etc.
Rob.