CF world record on the 'old' targets?

[Spencer C]

saw the comment in an article
"...it should be remembered that the World Record Centrefire score (on the old targets) is still held by a S&W Model 14 (K38) revolver shot at the World Shooting Championships in Cairo, Egypt in the 1960s..."

to my recollected myths, it was a M52 or Colt Gold Cup that held the old record.

Any advice?

Spencer

[Greg Derr]

TD Smith of the US set the record in Brazil I believe with a semi auto. He donated the gun to the NRA museum. I think the score was 598- He was quite a character- I don't know if he is still alive. Greg

[David Levene]

Igor Rakalov won the 1962 Cairo World Championships with a 590 (do not know the gun).

TD Smith's World Record was set in 1963 at the Pan American Championships in Sao Paulo. I "believe" that he used a Model 52.

[funMor]

David is right.
That fenomenal record was set by the one and only T. D. Smith in Sao Paulo in Brazil during the Pan American Games in 1963.
He used a customized S&W M 52 in .38 WC caliber.
The score was 597/ 600 ( 297 - 300).

We fire at smaller duel targets now, yes, but it is easier to shot high scores with the newer match semiautos in .32 S&W L caliber.

I think 590 (the current world CF record) is way behind the old 597 score.
(Try to imagine the scores fired by mr Smith if he had had the modern .32 autos back then in 1963!)
Also keep in mind that todays .32 bullet holes are scaled up to .38 caliber!

TD Smith is one of the greatest pistoleros of all times. He is simply immortal.

[David M]

Some time ago, after hearing a lot of differing stories I chased up Don Nygord to find the real answer to this question.
attached is his answer.

What TD Smith used to set World CF Record

Posted by Don Nygord on March 02, 2001 at 12:07:49:
Sorry this is posted so long after the original thread regarding semi-autos vs
revolvers in the Center Fire match, but TD Smith was traveling and only got back
to me today. I shot with TD several times and heard the story from him many
years ago, but not trusting my memory, I called the old warrior, wanting the
information to come direct from the "shooter's mouth" considering how certain
some of the posters were about what he used. Here are his words:
"Don, the pistol in question was a Colt 38 Super that Jimmy Clark converted to
.38 special for me in 1959. It shot a Federal loading of .38 Special wad cutter
that bench rested 1.3 inches at 50 yards. Lou Willing (Air Force gunsmith) went
to Brazil with me and kept it in excellent shape. Down to the last 5 shots and
there were 3 World Records on the line. I know you are aware of what goes
through your mind as you punch those last 5 rounds into the magazine! What got
me through was remembering Ad Topperwein who taught me to shoot as a boy. I shot
those last 5 "for Ad". " Well, this won't put the argument of revolvers vs
semi-autos to rest but at least we know what TD used. By the way, I tied the US
record on the old target with 598 (299/299) with a long slide Colt conversion to
.38 special I built for myself and won the Pan Am gold with a .32 Erma. So
there's two votes for semi-autos! Don


Hope this helps
David M

[David Levene]

Great posting David M. I had a feeling that somewhere I had heard that he hadn't used the much reported Model 52.

If you don't mind, I will archive your post on my machine so that we have the answer ready the next time the question is asked. It seems to come up every few years.

[funMor]

Thanks, David M.
I will hereby delete from my personal harddisk, the one located inside my skull, all false info about that famous record of mr. Smith.

Let me ask you, David M. about the record score. It was 597 I recon, albait this is not noted specifically in your post. And i think it was 297 and 300.
Please bring us the correct info here, David M.

As it turns out, second hand info is not absolutely correct, always.
I was told by a former precident in my countries division of UIT, now ISSF, that Smith used the M 52. Now we know better.

[David M]

score was 298 prec (100/99/99) / 299 duel
David m

[Spencer C]

Thanks all.

This forum is a great (and quick) way to get info.
What did we do in the days before the internet?

Spencer

[K. Snyder]

You can see both the Precision and the composite Duel target from Mr. Smith's WR on page 40 of "Pistol Shooting" by Antal and Skanaker.

[JohnK]

In 1990 I shot NRA Conventional on the Oklahoma Team with T.D.
We went to Perry that year and I rode up and roomed with him.
What an experience!
You should get the reprint of the story when he fell out of the C-47 over the mountains in Europe without a parachute!
I no longer live in Oklahoma and have lost touch with T.D.
I would love to get back in touch with him.
If anyone knows how please PM me?
Thanks!
JLK

[funMor]

John K.

I am looking forward to hear more about that incident. Over some mountain of Europe. Could it have happend here, close?

All best,

funMor

[fsmte]

Really, Thomas Smith III used in the Pan American Games of 1963, in São Paulo, a SW M52 (model 52-A, still not commercial model) and the result was in precision: 298 and in the duel 299. Second placed in the test it was Bill Blankenship, also with M52, with 594, what already it would be the world-wide record. In 1966, Word Championship Weisbaden, Bill is Word Champion with 595! these men are good!


The duel target was great e the countings next to the 100. The center was oval. The great countings in world-wide were between 590. Today, with the reduced targets in 1989, the world-wide record is… 590 . Four shooters withholds this mark: Kusmin (revolver), Pyzhyanov (revolver) and Nestruev (Hämmerli 280) of RUS and Byung (Hämmerli 280) of KOR.

[David Levene]

Really, Thomas Smith III used in the Pan American Games of 1963, in São Paulo, a SW M52 (model 52-A, still not commercial model)

That is what has always been reported but we now have a line of reporting going back to TD Smith himself that it was not true.

[JohnK]

T.D. showed me a picture of the world record targets along with a picture of him firing with Bill Blakenship on the next firing point. I recall he said he had donated the pistol he used to the National Firearms Museum. Also, if I recall correctly, it was a Colt based automatic with a 5 inch slide and a 6 inch barrel. In no way did he ever give me the impression he used a Model 52.
...falling from the airplane...
The C-47 came apart right where he was sitting. He recalled unstrapping himself from the seat. I asked him if he thought he was going to die? He replied "I knew I was going to die!" I asked him then why in the world was he worried about the damn seat? He said "I knew I didn't have a chance with the seat so I had to undo the seat belt to get away from it. You NEVER give up!"
He is quite a person.

[VAshooter]

The Colt 38WC that TD Smith used to set the record is on display at the NRA Museum. I saw it last year. The story of him falling out of a plane without a parachute was printed in the Dillon Blue Press a couple years ago.
Anyone who can calmly take pictures of a plane breaking up around him so that there will be a record of what happened must have the intestinal fortitude to shoot a world record.

Doug in Virginia

[Alexander]

An interesting and maybe amusing factoid:

The "old" UIT/ISU rapid fire (duel) target is still being used in Germany for hunting competition, with its insert only (scoring starts at the 6 ring).

DJV hunting pistol is an aggregate consisting of three events:
- 5 shots duel style (7 - 3 seconds);
- 2 x 5 shots draw and fire (from an inside holster under your jacket or coat), 4 seconds per shot;
- 5 shots rapid fire (series within 8 seconds).

For draw and fire, the handgun must be either uncocked and will then be manually cocked; or (in case of internal hammer resp. striker) it must be unloaded, and has its slide racked upon drawing. This explains the long serrations on the Hämmerli 212 slide, in case you ever wondered. :-)

Alexander

[Guest]

The current CISM world record is 597 (Yusuf Dikec), it's not as if the 590 would be unbreakable since the arrival of the new RF target.

[David Levene]

...it's not as if the 590 would be unbreakable since the arrival of the new RF target.

590 is history. The current ISSF World Record is 594; Nestruev in 2007 and Klimov this year.

[R.M.]

I would assume the CF record would have to start all over again as the triggers are now 1000g, correct?