I compete in Highpower Rifle, but I have recently purchases a 22LR target rifle and intend to shoot smallbore so that I can get in more practice time.
The concensus from what I have read is that smallbore is more difficult to excel in than Highpower. I am wondering if this is because it is inherently more difficult to shoot a smallbore rifle accurately, or if it is because the scoring rings are smaller (in terms of minutes of angle) than the Highpower targets?
I realize that rimfire ammunition will have a longer dwell time in the barrel due to the lower muzzle velocity. This will require more attention to proper follow-through when firing. Conversely, though, the rimfire will have less recoil, which I would think would make it less susceptible to changes in point of impact due to variations in hold/posiiton.
Any thoughts about the benefit gained in Highpower Rifle from shooting smallbore will be appreciated.
Cross Training
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963, David Levene, Spencer
High Power vs smallbore
Robert,
It is not more difficult to excell in smallbore than it is to excell in high power. With all respect, please change your thinking.
It is not really any more difficult to shoot a smallbore rifle accurately (or a high power rifle, conversely).
It is true that the scoring rings are smaller and closer together than the Highpower targets and rimfire ammunition, even the best, is not as accurate as most centerfire handloads worked up carefully for a particular gun.
That being said, if you are used to shooting 95 + standing, cleans and 99s in the rapid strings and 192 or better at 600 and you switch to smallbore, your SB scores will be lower (how much depends on your target). Does that matter to you?
If it does, then smallbore will be too frustrating. But, if it doesn't matter then jump in and go for it. By increasing the challenge, you will become more precise in holding, aiming, triggering and follow-through.
When you go back out to shoot HP, you WILL have an advantage.
Believe it or not, you need the same follow-through skills shooting smallbore or high power. The barrel time is slower for smallbore, but the total time that should be considered includes the trigger and action lock time as well as ignition time. The time frame we are talking about is 0.003 to 0.006 seconds. You really don't react to the shot, as the best human reaction time is approximately 0.15 seconds. So follow-through is more about anticipation (or lack of) than reacting to the shot. If you "know" when you are going to pull the trigger you are much more likely to tense up muscles in anticipation of the shot.
The rimfire will have less recoil, but that doesn't really matter.
One of the principles of good shooting positions is that they are consistent. That means YOU are consistent in position, alignment, hold, muscle tension, etc. Everything!
Smallbore shooting really did help me in my highpower shooting. I had shot smallbore all my life until I was about 31 years oldand then I started HP in 1989 . It took me a few months to get the rapid fire down pat and a couple more to really deal with 600 yards, but my first HP 20 shot standing stage score was 195 with 8xs. I won that match. BTW, it was 28 degrees F.
Marcus Raab
lets see...
Presidents Hundred 1994, 1996
Distinguished Rifleman 1990
Team member of winning six man team Camp Perry 1990
It is not more difficult to excell in smallbore than it is to excell in high power. With all respect, please change your thinking.
It is not really any more difficult to shoot a smallbore rifle accurately (or a high power rifle, conversely).
It is true that the scoring rings are smaller and closer together than the Highpower targets and rimfire ammunition, even the best, is not as accurate as most centerfire handloads worked up carefully for a particular gun.
That being said, if you are used to shooting 95 + standing, cleans and 99s in the rapid strings and 192 or better at 600 and you switch to smallbore, your SB scores will be lower (how much depends on your target). Does that matter to you?
If it does, then smallbore will be too frustrating. But, if it doesn't matter then jump in and go for it. By increasing the challenge, you will become more precise in holding, aiming, triggering and follow-through.
When you go back out to shoot HP, you WILL have an advantage.
Believe it or not, you need the same follow-through skills shooting smallbore or high power. The barrel time is slower for smallbore, but the total time that should be considered includes the trigger and action lock time as well as ignition time. The time frame we are talking about is 0.003 to 0.006 seconds. You really don't react to the shot, as the best human reaction time is approximately 0.15 seconds. So follow-through is more about anticipation (or lack of) than reacting to the shot. If you "know" when you are going to pull the trigger you are much more likely to tense up muscles in anticipation of the shot.
The rimfire will have less recoil, but that doesn't really matter.
One of the principles of good shooting positions is that they are consistent. That means YOU are consistent in position, alignment, hold, muscle tension, etc. Everything!
Smallbore shooting really did help me in my highpower shooting. I had shot smallbore all my life until I was about 31 years oldand then I started HP in 1989 . It took me a few months to get the rapid fire down pat and a couple more to really deal with 600 yards, but my first HP 20 shot standing stage score was 195 with 8xs. I won that match. BTW, it was 28 degrees F.
Marcus Raab
lets see...
Presidents Hundred 1994, 1996
Distinguished Rifleman 1990
Team member of winning six man team Camp Perry 1990
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Robert Burdge
- Posts: 32
- Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 4:27 pm
- Location: Kansas City
Marcus,
Thanks for the reply. I do not plan on competing in smallbore competition. I only intend to use smallbore for backyard practice to supplement my regular Highpower shooting. I think I may have mis-stated my premise about the difficulty of smallbore vs. highpower, but you indicate that my scores would likely be lower initially when switching to smallbore, which is what I was curious about.
What I am still not clear about is whether shooting a rimfire rifle is actually more difficult or if the added difficulty is merely the result of a more demanding target.
In any case, I have never worried much about my scores (as compared to other shooters) except as a way of measuring my improvement. I typically only shoot one match per month (with an occasional extra practice season and lots of dry firing) and I did not see much improvment in my scores last season, so I am hoping that practicing regularly at home with a rimfire will allow me to improve. I don't think that I am getting enough "trigger time" to enable me to get feedback on my technique.
I just ordered the book "Ways of the Rifle" and I am looking forward to discovering some useful information that will help me improve my skills.
Thanks for the reply. I do not plan on competing in smallbore competition. I only intend to use smallbore for backyard practice to supplement my regular Highpower shooting. I think I may have mis-stated my premise about the difficulty of smallbore vs. highpower, but you indicate that my scores would likely be lower initially when switching to smallbore, which is what I was curious about.
What I am still not clear about is whether shooting a rimfire rifle is actually more difficult or if the added difficulty is merely the result of a more demanding target.
In any case, I have never worried much about my scores (as compared to other shooters) except as a way of measuring my improvement. I typically only shoot one match per month (with an occasional extra practice season and lots of dry firing) and I did not see much improvment in my scores last season, so I am hoping that practicing regularly at home with a rimfire will allow me to improve. I don't think that I am getting enough "trigger time" to enable me to get feedback on my technique.
I just ordered the book "Ways of the Rifle" and I am looking forward to discovering some useful information that will help me improve my skills.
-
Guest
Hi Robert,
I normally shoot 300mtr issf and like you decided to try smallbore as a way of getting more practice time (as do most of my 300m mates) The general feeling amongst the people I shoot with is that smallbore is a very good way to hone your fullbore skills due primarily to the amount of time a smallbore round spends in the barrel after shot release, it really accentuates any positional and trigger control errors you make. This for me seems to be true, if i make bad shot with fullbore i generally shoot a nine (can't remember the last time i shot an eight) Make the same error in smallbore and you get punished with a 8 or 7.
Rgrds, jonno.
I normally shoot 300mtr issf and like you decided to try smallbore as a way of getting more practice time (as do most of my 300m mates) The general feeling amongst the people I shoot with is that smallbore is a very good way to hone your fullbore skills due primarily to the amount of time a smallbore round spends in the barrel after shot release, it really accentuates any positional and trigger control errors you make. This for me seems to be true, if i make bad shot with fullbore i generally shoot a nine (can't remember the last time i shot an eight) Make the same error in smallbore and you get punished with a 8 or 7.
Rgrds, jonno.
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mikeschroeder
- Posts: 488
- Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 10:56 am
- Location: Kansas
Hi
I have a hint / warning on purchasing a .22LR or Air Rifle for Highpower training. Many Sporter Air Rifle shooters don't put the butt of the stock in their shoulder the way a highpower shooter would. This isn't important when there isn't any recoil. Sporter stocks are the same shape as a hunting rifle in general. In competition shooting there is a need to keep your head level, which these stocks don't allow if held the same way as a .30-06.
What I'm getting at is since you're practicing highpower, buying a stock like you shoot in highpower is important.
Mike
I have a hint / warning on purchasing a .22LR or Air Rifle for Highpower training. Many Sporter Air Rifle shooters don't put the butt of the stock in their shoulder the way a highpower shooter would. This isn't important when there isn't any recoil. Sporter stocks are the same shape as a hunting rifle in general. In competition shooting there is a need to keep your head level, which these stocks don't allow if held the same way as a .30-06.
What I'm getting at is since you're practicing highpower, buying a stock like you shoot in highpower is important.
Mike
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Robert Burdge
- Posts: 32
- Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 4:27 pm
- Location: Kansas City
Mike,
Thanks for the suggestion. After toying with different options, I decided to get a Rimfire upper for my AR-15. I knew this would put me at a disadvantage if I ever wanted to actually shoot in a smallbore match, and I thought it would be fun to have a different rifle than the AR (I had the chance to shoot a friends Marlin and an Anschutz and liked the look and feel of them). In the end, since my primary goal was helping my Highpower game, I decided on a rifle with the same ergonomics.
I cheaped out and bought a DPMS CMP upper instead of a Compass Lake upper. The $1000 price tag was too big of a pill to swallow. I am going to bench test the DPMS upper with a 24X scope and see what it can do. Hopefully it will shoot well enough that I will have plenty to work on until I find myself limited by the rifle. At that point, I will probably sell the DPMS uppper and trade-up to a CLE upper. The DPMS has a true rimfire chamber and uses a Wilson barrel, there's really no reason it shouldn't be able to shoot very good groups (at least by Highpower standards).
To be able to clean a target with a high X-count a Highpower Rifle needs to be capable of grouping in the X-ring when human error is eliminated. The tighter the rifle groups, of course, the more margin there is to allow for human error. The Highpower X-ring and 10-ring are 1.09 and 2.13 moa, respectively (allowing for a 5.7mm bullet). With a 5.6mm bullet, this would translate to a 9.7mm inner spread (just inside the 10.4mm 10 ring) and a 24.9mm inner spread (just inside 26.4mm 9 ring) on the smallbore target.
It looks like a clean with high X-count on a Highpower target would be probably translate to about 96 or 97 with lower X-count on the smallbore target. With that in mind I can hopefully relate my smallbore practice to Highpower scores.
Thanks for the suggestion. After toying with different options, I decided to get a Rimfire upper for my AR-15. I knew this would put me at a disadvantage if I ever wanted to actually shoot in a smallbore match, and I thought it would be fun to have a different rifle than the AR (I had the chance to shoot a friends Marlin and an Anschutz and liked the look and feel of them). In the end, since my primary goal was helping my Highpower game, I decided on a rifle with the same ergonomics.
I cheaped out and bought a DPMS CMP upper instead of a Compass Lake upper. The $1000 price tag was too big of a pill to swallow. I am going to bench test the DPMS upper with a 24X scope and see what it can do. Hopefully it will shoot well enough that I will have plenty to work on until I find myself limited by the rifle. At that point, I will probably sell the DPMS uppper and trade-up to a CLE upper. The DPMS has a true rimfire chamber and uses a Wilson barrel, there's really no reason it shouldn't be able to shoot very good groups (at least by Highpower standards).
To be able to clean a target with a high X-count a Highpower Rifle needs to be capable of grouping in the X-ring when human error is eliminated. The tighter the rifle groups, of course, the more margin there is to allow for human error. The Highpower X-ring and 10-ring are 1.09 and 2.13 moa, respectively (allowing for a 5.7mm bullet). With a 5.6mm bullet, this would translate to a 9.7mm inner spread (just inside the 10.4mm 10 ring) and a 24.9mm inner spread (just inside 26.4mm 9 ring) on the smallbore target.
It looks like a clean with high X-count on a Highpower target would be probably translate to about 96 or 97 with lower X-count on the smallbore target. With that in mind I can hopefully relate my smallbore practice to Highpower scores.