Free Pistol: Pardini v. TOZ

[sparky]

Has anyone played with rebarreling a Toz with a longer barrel or extended its sight radius by some means an extra 1-2 inches?
Anyone know how the Toz barrel is secured in the frame? If it is just threading, anyone know the size/pitch?

[ruig]

Has anyone played with rebarreling a Toz with a longer barrel or extended its sight radius by some means an extra 1-2 inches?
Anyone know how the Toz barrel is secured in the frame? If it is just threading, anyone know the size/pitch?

Everything I've seen concerning more longer TOZs:
I've seen like people extend sight radius by moving rear sight block back (on a special made pedestal).

[PaulT]

I don’t think anybody would question the quality/accuracy of the Toz/Morini, just check the test groups possible in the ammunition test rigs and results achieved using both pistols and these exceed x-ring accuracy 25mm at 50m. My personal belief on the “forgiving” nature debate is how well the balance and setup of the pistol and the sight radius.

The sight radius variable can easily be tested on most air pistols as unless you have the adjustment/components or a free pistol it is hard to simulate! By just bringing back the front sight towards the rear sight, the impact can easily be evaluated. The group opens up but the are slightly less tens. The overall stability on my SCATT traces is not impacted but two observations; the alignment is not as precise so I am prone to angular error but the more solid sight picture lessens temptation to correct what was easily a ten so no erratic shots. Has anybody else tried this?

The Toz and Morini both have third-party compensators and sight extension foresight tubes. For the Morini, this can be quite profound taking the radius from 347-444mm to 456-505mm with the new compensator. Compensators also impact the balance overall weight. Pictures of both tube/compensator units were posted on this board 12 months ago. PM me if you want some pics of the new model. I am not aware of any similar options for Pardini.

My conclusion is that the sight radius is just one attribute of configuring the pistol to suit the shooter. It is interesting how this can impact our perception of stability and forgiveness of a pistol!

[mark kelly]

It's all personal opinion. Go to a big match and look around. All of the shooters I know are willing to let other people handle their pistols and even shoot them. See which one you like best, feel, firing characteristics, balance etc. The accuracy is not important; when matched to the right ammo they are all tack drivers unless a prior owner used a steel coat hanger to clean it from the muzzle for years. One word of wisdom- don't let the cost hinder you from buying what you want. If it takes you longer to save up so be it. It will always be in the back of your mind "If I only would have gotten the *****" Good luck and have fun looking!

[mrlo87n]

Good point, Mark.

[David Levene]

Good point, Mark.

Indeed it is. As that bloomin' annoying mouse follower on the Pilkguns site says "quality has no regrets".

[Dave from Coraopolis]

Let me offer a few thoughts about the term "forgiveness" and perhaps some other experienced shooters could comment on these.

The earliest use of the term I heard of was in comparing particularly, 22 pistols used for NRA shooting. Some would tolerate what I muscling them through timed and rapid fire. Muscling is using brute force to get through the sustained fire string with good results. Aside from hardball, the High Standard is one of the best examples I can think of. It's counterpart, at the time, was the S&W 41, which would not tolerate such trigger control. The S&W 41 seemed to show a giggle or after shock immediately after the shot. The HS seemed to stay solid as a brick. A more recent example of not tolerating such trigger control in Timed and Rapid fire is the Hammerli 208S - a superb pistol and the most accurate I've used, but it definitely requires finesse and if you get behind your timing, you can't force it back in line. If you try, you get poor shots.

Another aspect of forgiveness is the shooter's comfort level with the shot delivery process, including sight picture. We (members of my team) have suffered through a lot of free pistol experiments to try and determine which these are so darn hard to shoot. One recent experiment was enlightening. We shot free pistols on the B2 target (.22 slowfire 50 ft.) and compared the group sizes with those shot on the B33 (50 ft. free pistol target). We found that those groups shot on the B2 were smaller than those shot on the B33. We theorize at this stage that because the target seems larger, the perception of roaming out of the aiming area during the shot delivery process is less disturbing to the shooter and therefore the shooter concentrates more on sight alignment and trigger control and less on sight picture.

We will continue to pursue this theory more during the indoor season.

Any other comments on the topic of forgiveness or any related experimentation would be most welcome.

Dave from Coraopolis.

[Dave from Coraopolis]

PS to my earlier comments. One on my best performing 22 pistols was a 4 inch barreled (Napco) High Standard. Not the most accurate one, but the most stable one. Seems that feel (ergonomics) is far more important (given acceptable accuracy) than technical factors in the pistol itself.

[fsmte]

Hello friends

My experience says me that some differentiated explanations exist. It forgives if to seem a little esoteric, but it is not.

First: TOZ trigger does not tremble when the pulled one is a little lateral. In the other weapons, the pulled one if will not be accurately for brings, perpendicular to the barrel, a small one "trembled" happens. We do not perceive, but Scatt and Rika can inform. This "small one trembled" in the too much pistols is a little of not forgives. In the TOZ the trembled one very is reduced, therefore, more forgives.

An example is the short lock-time of the Hämmerli, but that not forgives of TOZ in such a way. Not interests if the trigger is electronic or mechanic. The question is not this.


Second: since that I measured the bore of some weapons, I started to consider that TOZ is minor who 5,56mm. The Chamber is more joust that others, as Hämmerli. I perceived that all the pistols that have deeper rays, forgives more. When it has softer rays, flatter, forgives little.

Why it is not argued that air pistol forgives more or less? Easy reply: all use barrel of Lothar Walther!

[Dave P.]

Ihave a chance to buy a Morini 84E. Two problems. I'm Left handed and due to the cost of changing grips and electronics, probably could never sell it reasonably to anyone other than a LH FP shooter (all 5 of us).

2. I've never even handled one.

I would appreciate feedback from someone who shoots an 84E and could compare it to:
1. TOZ
2. Hammerli 150, 160
3. Pardini PGP 75

Thanks,

Dave P.....................

[strazzman]

I am a fellow leftie (shooter that is, not a feather merchant) at the time I could only find a left hand pardini so had little choice but to acquire it, after reading the 2 pages of waffle about toz v pardini I am glad that I never had the chance to choose between the two free pistols, buy what you can source and make the most of it. recently shot a 91 and 94 with the pardini so it cannot be that bad, considering I only use it occasionally.

[LH FP]

Hello,
I am LH FP as well, contact me in case of any questions (I use TOZ)
9mm@post.sk

Ihave a chance to buy a Morini 84E. Two problems. I'm Left handed and due to the cost of changing grips and electronics, probably could never sell it reasonably to anyone other than a LH FP shooter (all 5 of us).

2. I've never even handled one.

I would appreciate feedback from someone who shoots an 84E and could compare it to:
1. TOZ
2. Hammerli 150, 160
3. Pardini PGP 75

Thanks,

Dave P.....................

[stesei]

Here are some pictures of top shooters at the ISAS in Germany, f.e. Roberto di Donna:

http://www.wsb-home.de/isas/fotos/big/10.jpg

http://www.wsb-home.de/isas/fotos/big/09.jpg

http://www.wsb-home.de/isas/fotos/big/11.jpg


Many top shooters start at the ISAS an prefer the TOZ.

Regards

Stefan Seimer
www.schiessportinfos.de