I shoot Highpower rifle, but I am getting interested in air rifle for practice and convenience. In Highpower (for standing) we have a 1.5 moa X-ring, 3.5 moa 10-ring and a 6.5 moa 9-ring. The size of the bullet hole compared to the scoring rings is small (7 inch 10 ring @ 200 yards) so the "effective" size of the scoring ring (7.11") is not increased much when scoring a "scratch" 10.
After looking at the 10 meter air rifle targets I have some questions. Since the 10 ring (dot) is 0.5 mm and the pellets are 4.5 mm in diameter, am I correct in saying that the "effective" size of the 10 ring is 5.0 mm? That is, if I place the center of the pellet hole within 2.5 mm of the center of the target it will scored as a 10, since it will touch the center dot? Likewise the "effective" size of the 9-ring would be 10.0 mm, since a shot centered 5.0 mm from the center would still touch the 5.5 mm 9-ring?
If this is correct, this would translate into an "effective" 1.7 moa 10-ring and 3.4 moa 9-ring, which makes it almost the same as the dimensions on the Highpower target. This would seem to suggest that the level of difficulty would be similar between these two disciplines.
A rifle capable of shooting less than 1 moa groups is essential for Highpower competition, with a rifle approaching 1/2 moa being more desireable. I read that the Daisy 853 "can hold the 7-ring" from a bench rest. If this means only scoring 7's that would translate to an almost 6.9 moa grouping, pretty horrible. If this means keeping the entire pellet hole inside the edge of the 7-ring this would be slightly less than a 3.8 moa grouping, which would be almost enough to score 9's as a minimum. Since the 4.5 mm pellet is 1.5 moa wide an air rifle would have to shoot clover leafs to achieve a 1.0 moa group. I know the Daisy 853 has been used by many youth groups. What kind of accuracy should be expected from this rifle? Thanks.
Target dimensions, scoring and accuracy
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963, David Levene, Spencer
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Robert Burdge
- Posts: 32
- Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 4:27 pm
- Location: Kansas City
Our Daisy 853 and 888's will hold much better than the 7 ring.
I don't spend a lot of time with them because I coach the intermeadiate portion of our program and we shoot precision air with the P70 Jr.'s.
I think the idea of the air rifle and small bore targets is to maintain the same standard/scale as the high power targets.
I don't spend a lot of time with them because I coach the intermeadiate portion of our program and we shoot precision air with the P70 Jr.'s.
I think the idea of the air rifle and small bore targets is to maintain the same standard/scale as the high power targets.
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max
im not sure about the daisy you are talking about, but i shoot a walther lg300. At N Johnsons out in colorodo, he benched my air rifle to test for pellet and size matches. at 10m, the walther shot 10 shots in one hole the size of a pellet, tight enough that you could drop a pellet through it and it would be caught by the skirt.
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Guest
target
Your basic premise is good.
Use AR to train for HP - cheaper, safer, quieter, short range, etc.
Your math is off a bit:
1. The effective 200 yd 10 ring would be 7.22 - 7.30 as you get to add both bullet radii to the ring.
2. The AR ten dot very roughly corresponds to the 200yd x ring, so the scoring (and level of dificulty) would be very different, but not difficult to switch. (FYI, the 50m smallbore ten ring is relatively smaller yet)
So: 10m 10 = 200yd X
10m 9 = 200yd 10,
etc. as rough approximations.
3. You got bad info on the accuracy of the 853. They are capable of holding ten ring or better. Brad Wheeldon held the National record for many years with a three position sporter rifle score over 560/600. I think he used a Daisy 853 for that. I have seen many other shooters in my camps and clinics shoot scores with Daisys that require ten ring accuracy.
Another illustration of "Life is too short to shoot bad ammo"
Use AR to train for HP - cheaper, safer, quieter, short range, etc.
Your math is off a bit:
1. The effective 200 yd 10 ring would be 7.22 - 7.30 as you get to add both bullet radii to the ring.
2. The AR ten dot very roughly corresponds to the 200yd x ring, so the scoring (and level of dificulty) would be very different, but not difficult to switch. (FYI, the 50m smallbore ten ring is relatively smaller yet)
So: 10m 10 = 200yd X
10m 9 = 200yd 10,
etc. as rough approximations.
3. You got bad info on the accuracy of the 853. They are capable of holding ten ring or better. Brad Wheeldon held the National record for many years with a three position sporter rifle score over 560/600. I think he used a Daisy 853 for that. I have seen many other shooters in my camps and clinics shoot scores with Daisys that require ten ring accuracy.
Another illustration of "Life is too short to shoot bad ammo"
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Bill Poole
- Posts: 435
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:50 pm
- Location: Scottsdale, AZ
- Contact:
I would offer a different suggestion....
if you want to shoot an air rifle, shoot the best air rifle at the proper air rifle target.
if you want offhand (or sitting or prone) practice for high power, clamp a RIKA sensor on the barrel of your AR-15.
The weight, balance, shape of the stock, grip, the feel of the trigger, the sight picture will all be different from air rifle to high power. I think if you want to train muscle memory for HP, practice with the HP rifle.
I got a FWB300S years ago thinking I'd practice for HP, almost never did, I put a makeshift post sight on it for a while but did really enjoy it much....
NOW, my interests have shifted, to ISSF shooting, I have borrowed a Scatt electronic trainer, (which does not have US HP targets in the software but the RIKA's Pilkguns sells do as I recall) and I am using it and finding it useful. FAR more interesting than dry firing and more informative than 0.177 diameter holes in a piece of paper. Its only been a coupla weeks so we'll see if I can keep up the interest.
Air rifle with live pellets WILL force you to pay attention to follow thru, but you can see it even better on the computer screen. If you DO shoot air rifle, don't worry about scores and rings, just shoot at a black circle of the proper diameter and try to make all the holes as close together as possible.
I also shoot Air pistol, but i do that to shoot air pistol not as cross training for something else.
Good luck
Poole
http://arizona.rifleshooting.com/
if you want to shoot an air rifle, shoot the best air rifle at the proper air rifle target.
if you want offhand (or sitting or prone) practice for high power, clamp a RIKA sensor on the barrel of your AR-15.
The weight, balance, shape of the stock, grip, the feel of the trigger, the sight picture will all be different from air rifle to high power. I think if you want to train muscle memory for HP, practice with the HP rifle.
I got a FWB300S years ago thinking I'd practice for HP, almost never did, I put a makeshift post sight on it for a while but did really enjoy it much....
NOW, my interests have shifted, to ISSF shooting, I have borrowed a Scatt electronic trainer, (which does not have US HP targets in the software but the RIKA's Pilkguns sells do as I recall) and I am using it and finding it useful. FAR more interesting than dry firing and more informative than 0.177 diameter holes in a piece of paper. Its only been a coupla weeks so we'll see if I can keep up the interest.
Air rifle with live pellets WILL force you to pay attention to follow thru, but you can see it even better on the computer screen. If you DO shoot air rifle, don't worry about scores and rings, just shoot at a black circle of the proper diameter and try to make all the holes as close together as possible.
I also shoot Air pistol, but i do that to shoot air pistol not as cross training for something else.
Good luck
Poole
http://arizona.rifleshooting.com/
Scatt Targets
Bill and others interested.
I have made all of the NRA of America HP targets including (long range and Palma) for the Scatt. They have been available for almost 2 years on the centershot.com website front page.
http://www.centershot.com/downloads/scatttgt.exe
Marcus Raab
I have made all of the NRA of America HP targets including (long range and Palma) for the Scatt. They have been available for almost 2 years on the centershot.com website front page.
http://www.centershot.com/downloads/scatttgt.exe
Marcus Raab
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Robert Burdge
- Posts: 32
- Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 4:27 pm
- Location: Kansas City
Bob,
Thanks for the info. You're right about the effective size of the 200 yard 10-ring should be 7.22 for a .223 cartridge.
I guess I can't read my own writing, since I did the math that showed that the X and 10 ring on the Highpower targets is about the same as the 10 and 9 ring on the 10m target, then concluded that the level of difficulty was the same.
Thanks for straightening me out on that one. That's why I have found forums like this one so valuable - you find someone to check your homework.
I am glad to hear that the Daisy 853 is more accurate than I was told. The info I got came from a CMP publication about Sporter Air Rifles.
I am considering the Daisy 888 also. How much elevation change at 10m should I expect over temperature with a C02 gun?
There is a Crosman 167 clone with a target-style stock and sights being offered by Compasseco under the name TF-79. It is priced in the range of the Daisy 853 and 888. Any thoughts on this one? Thanks.
Thanks for the info. You're right about the effective size of the 200 yard 10-ring should be 7.22 for a .223 cartridge.
I guess I can't read my own writing, since I did the math that showed that the X and 10 ring on the Highpower targets is about the same as the 10 and 9 ring on the 10m target, then concluded that the level of difficulty was the same.
Thanks for straightening me out on that one. That's why I have found forums like this one so valuable - you find someone to check your homework.
I am glad to hear that the Daisy 853 is more accurate than I was told. The info I got came from a CMP publication about Sporter Air Rifles.
I am considering the Daisy 888 also. How much elevation change at 10m should I expect over temperature with a C02 gun?
There is a Crosman 167 clone with a target-style stock and sights being offered by Compasseco under the name TF-79. It is priced in the range of the Daisy 853 and 888. Any thoughts on this one? Thanks.