ISSF Ammunition Rules

[JamesH]

Does anyone know what ISSF rule 8.4.4 really means?

25m Center Fire
Pistol
7.62 mm – 9.65 mm
(.30”-.38”)
Highpower or Magnum ammunition
is not allowed

From my perspective:

9mm is a high power cartridge

It operates at magnum pressures or pretty close so really its a magnum cartridge.

Has anyone seen anything definitive on this?

[rmca]

I've been on both ends of that situation. Trying to train .22lr or .32 and have a couple of guys with 9mm, and training 9mm and having someone else training with .22lr. It's not good for the one with the smaller caliber.
For 25m center fire pistol you can use a 9mm, as long as it doesn't have a ported barrel and it complies with the rest of the rules.
It doesn't bring you any advantages and it disturbs the guys next to you on the line, but it's permitted by the rules.
I think the spirit of the rule is to leave out things like .357 magnum, or +P ammunition.
The problem you are going to have is that the rule doesn't specify a upper limit to the cartridge power. It probably never needed to, because you have no advantage, and top level competitors don't use them anyway.
You should try to find a way to cope with the situation. Assign the 9mm crowd to a different bay on the range, and the ISSF to another, if space permits, or get them to one side of the bay and the ISSF to another. Both should have the right to shoot.

Hope this helps

[Gwhite]

If this is for a match, you could restrict it based on velocity. .38 Special +P is not allowed, and it has a velocity around 1,000 fps. The vast majority of factory 9mm is significantly faster than that. If somebody is shooting factory 9mm, it usual has on the velocity on the box. Reloads would require a chronograph.

Independent of ISSF rules, a range can set any sort of restrictions they deem appropriate, but you can use the ISSF rules to justify the restriction. The vast majority of people shooting 9mm can't hit the broad side of a barn. Because it is so popular, my club has allowed the "combat" crowd to shoot the hell out of what was once one of the premier target shooting ranges in New England. The club is looking into building a dedicated range for them, in part because of the constant maintenance headaches caused by the combat shooters.

The vast majority of new members start with a 9mm, and A) don't know how to shoot, and B) don't understand the range rules. From the bullet holes we find in odd places, some of them are dangerously unsafe. Some clubs have bullet proof bunkers for folks like that, and others have restrictions where you can't shoot centerfire at all until you've demonstrated basic safety & accuracy with a .22 to a range officer.

[spektr]

I shoot all by myself ISSF wise. I go to a commercial range where I have no right to quibble about who is shooting what in the stall next to me.
I wear plugs and muffs shooting pistol and just do it. The 9mm pistol is the most common handgun shot in america. Expecting to regulate it away or manipulate it because it is perfectly legal in ISSF and some people shoot it in the event is nonsensical. THEY are just as affected by the noise as you are. Like it or not, an entrant shooting the 9mm has the same rights to shoot that as you do to shoot your round of choice. There need be no accomodation to anyone when a 9mm is on the line, and IF I was shooting a 9 and was segregated or handled in a way different than the rest of the line, Id get a bit vocal about fairness. The 9 is in the book, can be shot and while it's not my cup of tea, Im happy to have someone else on the line shooting a match with me......

[Azmodan]

8.4.4 Ammunition
All projectiles used must be made only of lead or similar soft material. Jacketed
projectiles are not permitted.

so 9x19 FMJ/HP/SP are not eligible for CFP.

[Dcforman]

I load lead 9mm. Not unheard of.

Dave

[JamesH]

.38 Special +P is not allowed, and it has a velocity around 1,000 fps.

Where is this written though? If its been determined by the ISSF somewhere that would be great.

The vast majority of factory 9mm is significantly faster than that.

Exactly, and double the pressure of 38+P

Independent of ISSF rules, a range can set any sort of restrictions they deem appropriate, but you can use the ISSF rules to justify the restriction. The vast majority of people shooting 9mm can't hit the broad side of a barn. Because it is so popular, my club has allowed the "combat" crowd to shoot the hell out of what was once one of the premier target shooting ranges in New England. The club is looking into building a dedicated range for them, in part because of the constant maintenance headaches caused by the combat shooters.

The vast majority of new members start with a 9mm, and A) don't know how to shoot, and B) don't understand the range rules. From the bullet holes we find in odd places, some of them are dangerously unsafe. Some clubs have bullet proof bunkers for folks like that, and others have restrictions where you can't shoot centerfire at all until you've demonstrated basic safety & accuracy with a .22 to a range officer.

This is all true, and a problem for every club these days.

'Back in my day' I had to put 30 consecutive shots into the black on an ISSF target at 25m before I could shoot centrefire.

[JamesH]

THEY are just as affected by the noise as you are.

Well no, someone standing next to a 9mm or other high pressure/high velocity round is far more affected by it than the person shooting it - on a typically wide open ISSF range.

Like it or not, an entrant shooting the 9mm has the same rights to shoot that as you do to shoot your round of choice.

Not if its precluded by the ISSF rules, and I would say it is.

[Gwhite]

.38 Special +P is not allowed, and it has a velocity around 1,000 fps.

Where is this written though? If its been determined by the ISSF somewhere that would be great.

I assume that ISSF considers .38 Special +P to be "high power". That's exactly what it is when compared to .38 special, which is certainly the most common "highest power" round used in competition. The ISSF rules are not very well written when it gets into details like this... Applying the 10 year cylinder rule to CO2 cylinders is another example.

I don't know if there is anyone at ISSF that you could contact for a ruling. If you know of any certified competition judges/referees you could contact, they could give you their interpretation.

[David M]

I shoot .38 special in ISSF competition.
I have taken the Maunrhin .38 Match revolver to both World Championship and Commonwealth games and sometimes the only .38 on the line.
You may have to justify your loads, no jacketed projectiles and loaded to .38 power levels.
Typical is a 148g lead HBWC with 2.7-2.8g Bullseye.
My competition load is a 134g button nose wadcutter loaded to 780 f/s-800 f/s.
Most 9mm will not load down to that level and cycle with lead projectiles.
The bigger calibre auto's I have seen at ISSF comp's are usually model 52's, P240's or hybrid 38 super Colt Officers model (loaded with wadcutter).

[j-team]

I've shot CF with my P210 9mm. 147gr hardcast coated projectiles doing about 850fps. Cycles perfectly, and 100% ISSF compliant (score was shit though!)

[lyoke3]

Typical is a 148g lead HBWC with 2.7-2.8g Bullseye.
My competition load is a 134g button nose wadcutter loaded to 780 f/s-800 f/s.

I just got a revolver in 38 for CF. What is your powder for the 134g WC load? Any primer recommendations?

Thanks!

[David M]

Home cast 135g BB button nose single lube groove lead98% tin 2% with 2.8g Bullseye powder.
Sized tp .356" (Manurhin barrel is .355") with home made lube from 1960's.
10 shot 25m group from a machine rest is 18mm outside to outside.
The 100 round group was 22mm and the 50m group is 25-35mm.
Bullet is based on a old 1960's ballistic theory of "Bearing surface of 1 1/2 diameter."
The .38 custom mould was 134g and the .32 custom mould is 90g (same profile).

[David M]

I've shot CF with my P210 9mm. 147gr hardcast coated projectiles doing about 850fps. Cycles perfectly, and 100% ISSF compliant (score was shit though!)

I also have a P210-5LS that I have tried to match the Manurhin Revolver.
With a aftermarket barrel (1in18 twist, lead groove), reduced double slide spring and ISSF orthopedic grip.
Best 25m group handheld was about 2" using a home cast 128g round nose wad cutters (2 ogive) and 3.2g bullseye at 910 f/s.
It took about 2 years to get it working to that level from factory, but never as good as the revolver.

[lyoke3]

Home cast 135g BB button nose single lube groove lead98% tin 2% with 2.8g Bullseye powder.
Sized tp .356" (Manurhin barrel is .355") with home made lube from 1960's.
10 shot 25m group from a machine rest is 18mm outside to outside.
The 100 round group was 22mm and the 50m group is 25-35mm.
Bullet is based on a old 1960's ballistic theory of "Bearing surface of 1 1/2 diameter."
The .38 custom mould was 134g and the .32 custom mould is 90g (same profile).

Thank you!

[JamesH]

You may have to justify your loads, no jacketed projectiles and loaded to .38 power levels.

Is this defined anywhere though, or up to the individual competition organiser?

It seems to be an unwritten rule that .38 special is about the upper power level, but unenforceable without a clear definition.

I'd dearly love to be able to exclude the morons who shoot 9mm and and think 150/600 is a terrific centrefire score.

[rmca]

This is what is written regarding ammunition:

I'd dearly love to be able to exclude the morons who shoot 9mm and and think 150/600 is a terrific centrefire score.

If you want to use the ISSF rule book to do that, I would go with the jacketed bullets.

Hope this helps
rmca

[JamesH]

Mostly its not jacketed though, factory lead loads.

[madmax]

Many ranges are limited to subsonic ammunition. This is defined in Wikipedia as 340.29mps / 1116.4fps.
I'm sure a lot of 9mm and 38Super loads exceed this, particularly when they shake the concrete floor.
Perhaps having a "chronograph day" might straighten out some of the "big-bang theory" guys.

Max.

[David M]

Limit the ammo with a club rule IE. " Maximum Power Factor on Range is …”

Power factor is bullet Weight (grains) X Velocity (f/s) / 1000,
thus a120g SWC at 1000 f/s = 129,000
or Power factor 120.

Most 148-158g in .38 Special are up to 830-850 f/s, +P are 980-1000 f/s,
Magnum up to 1200 f/s and 9mm are 1000-1100 f/s.
So loading to meet a power factor will mean reduced home loads.