The trouble is that nobody knows what the rules will be!!! This is extremely frustrating for everybody concerned. We were under the impression that the rules would not be changing after the idea was floated last year about this time. The ISSF Rifle Committee met in November to discuss this proposed rules change. We were under the impression that since no decision was reached, then it could not be passed up to the Administrative Council and Executive Committee for discussion at their meeting in Athens in April.
But Gary Anderson, ISSF Vice-President, is the person who appears to be pushing this idea again from the top levels of the ISSF. This time he wants to make changes to the jacket also. He wants the straps taken off the shoulder and the pocket removed too. There was no reason given for making changes to the jacket. No evidence was given as to how these two items provide artificial support. If the ISSF is so concerned with media image, they are going about it the wrong way by removing these two items. Without the take up straps, the jacket bunches up and rides up over the shooter's head while shooting prone. The take up straps are especially important on the standard size jackets which most junior shooters wear. The fit of the standard size jackets leaves a lot to be desired and the straps help to achieve a better fit. The pocket provides color and style to the jacket which is what the media is looking for, isn't it?
There may be a problem with enforcing the rules as they are written in the rule book. You know that if you compare jackets from five or ten years ago they are not exactly the same material and the major thing is that they have extra panels especially in the back. These were put there to make the jacket fit better since the materials used (canvas and leather) are not as pliable as regular cloth. But this is a problem with the rules and the juries, not the clothing.
The rule change could go into effect as early as January 2005, but it is important to remember that those rules are for World Cups and above. How USA Shooting handles the transition (assuming the rule is changed) is for them to decide. They may have a transition period.
Here are some other things to consider:
NCAA may or may not go along with this rule change, again a transition period may apply.
NRA may or may not change the NRA smallbore rules also (not just the International rules) to eliminate the pants.
I suggest that you write an email since the time is short to everyone you can think of to tell them what you think about this idea. Include Gary Anderson and Bob Mitchell at USA Shooting. Send them also to the ISSF. The ISSF seems to think that it is only the top shooters who don't want to change.
Check our website for more information and links.
Janet Raab
.48519.0
Comments on Rule Changes
Moderators: rexifelis, pilkguns
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Bill
A coaches view, if anyone cares.
My concern is that no one in authority- at both USA Shooting and the ISSF- seems willing to talk about this so it can be resolved diplomatically and democratically. Yes, I have written to both organizations and have not even received the courtesy of a response. Who works for whom here, anyway? Or is this not a democracy, where the shooters and coaches have a say in the workings of the organizations that are supposed to represent us?
While I understand both points of view, now I hear that possible changes to the shooting jacket are being considered- but only to the pocket and the straps. Where did this come from, and why? If stiffness of shooting pants is a concern, then why is it not for the jacket as well?
So...
Let's all just shoot in t-shirts under the NRA light-rifle category. That way no one has an advantage and no one gets his back blown out from shooting standing.
Then...
.. we should eliminate compressed airguns and return to the non-recoiless 1980's-era pneumatics. That way, it's a more physical sport and the scores won't be as high. But I recall scores of 390s even back then- and these were considered excessive.
Folks, to compare rules from the 1960s, 70s and even 1980s to today is like comparing apples to oranges. The media issue- the apparent driving force of this- has NOTHING to do with stiffness of pants or takeup straps or the pocket on a jacket. DOES anyone in their right mind really believe this? There is no proposal to change the shooting boots, but shooters walk like ducks in front of the camera, right? And the $2,000 rifle that gives them the 10s is unfair to the poor, but there is no plan to eliminate them, right?
If the effort is to make the sport more affordable and improve the playing field for newbies, then why not just come out and say it. Maybe we could collectively come up with an alterntive. But if the jacket remains the same, especially the price, by not addressing this as well how are we helping those who have less financial means? And the rifle?
I certainly don't have all of the answers, but I assure you one thing: rule changes for no valid reason will cause problems and will certainly NOT resolve the media issue.
Bill
I
.48533.48519
While I understand both points of view, now I hear that possible changes to the shooting jacket are being considered- but only to the pocket and the straps. Where did this come from, and why? If stiffness of shooting pants is a concern, then why is it not for the jacket as well?
So...
Let's all just shoot in t-shirts under the NRA light-rifle category. That way no one has an advantage and no one gets his back blown out from shooting standing.
Then...
.. we should eliminate compressed airguns and return to the non-recoiless 1980's-era pneumatics. That way, it's a more physical sport and the scores won't be as high. But I recall scores of 390s even back then- and these were considered excessive.
Folks, to compare rules from the 1960s, 70s and even 1980s to today is like comparing apples to oranges. The media issue- the apparent driving force of this- has NOTHING to do with stiffness of pants or takeup straps or the pocket on a jacket. DOES anyone in their right mind really believe this? There is no proposal to change the shooting boots, but shooters walk like ducks in front of the camera, right? And the $2,000 rifle that gives them the 10s is unfair to the poor, but there is no plan to eliminate them, right?
If the effort is to make the sport more affordable and improve the playing field for newbies, then why not just come out and say it. Maybe we could collectively come up with an alterntive. But if the jacket remains the same, especially the price, by not addressing this as well how are we helping those who have less financial means? And the rifle?
I certainly don't have all of the answers, but I assure you one thing: rule changes for no valid reason will cause problems and will certainly NOT resolve the media issue.
Bill
I
.48533.48519
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Questor
Re: Comments on Rule Changes
I just received the USA Shooting rulebook. Now I understand why the games are so unpopular. Nobody wants to bother running matches because of the complexity of the rules. I think USA Shooting and ISSF could learn a thing or two from the NRA in this regard.
.48534.48519
.48534.48519
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Bob Riegl
Re:Free Speech & Comments on Rule Changes
I guess my posting regarding the proposed change in clothing rules piqued the moderator. Did I get it too close to home when I mentioned the commercial aspect in all of this??? Thanks for letting me know that Free Speech DOES NOT EXIST ON THIS SITE.
fishnshoot-at-optonline.net.48566.48534
fishnshoot-at-optonline.net.48566.48534
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Jake
Re:Free Speech & Comments on Rule Changes
Free Speech DOES NOT EXIST ON THIS SITE.
What are you talking about? Your original posting is still there?
Maybe you were hoping that people would agree with you??
.48567.48566
What are you talking about? Your original posting is still there?
Maybe you were hoping that people would agree with you??
.48567.48566
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TJ
Re:Free Speech & Comments on Rule Changes
Free Speech has to do with the Constitution forbidding the GOVERNMENT from making laws suppressing the speech of individuals.
It has nothing to do with a individual or commercial message board which is privately owned/maintained.
If you think you dont have free speech here, you are wrong. But the owner can decide who and what goes on his message board since this is not a Government entity. Love it or leave it, as they say.
Ah! I feel good. Our Constitution is strong and the system still works!
: Free Speech DOES NOT EXIST ON THIS SITE.
: What are you talking about? Your original posting is still there?
: Maybe you were hoping that people would agree with you??
shootingsports-at-ev1.net.48571.48567
It has nothing to do with a individual or commercial message board which is privately owned/maintained.
If you think you dont have free speech here, you are wrong. But the owner can decide who and what goes on his message board since this is not a Government entity. Love it or leave it, as they say.
Ah! I feel good. Our Constitution is strong and the system still works!
: Free Speech DOES NOT EXIST ON THIS SITE.
: What are you talking about? Your original posting is still there?
: Maybe you were hoping that people would agree with you??
shootingsports-at-ev1.net.48571.48567
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Mike Schroeder
Re: A coaches view, if anyone cares.
Let's all just shoot in t-shirts under the NRA light-rifle category. That way no one has an advantage and no one gets his back blown out from shooting standing.
Hi
I just picked this part to make a new comment on, based on one of my students and family's experiences. The number of smallbore, precision air rifle, and sporter air rifle rule books is overwhelming to the new competitor. The so called light rifle, and 4-H rules are really of no help to any slightly serious competitor. The family owned a 10/22 and the boys, aged 9 and 14 took a 4-H air rifle class. They then purchased a Daisy 499 BB Gun (at least that works across the board), and an Avanti Valiant. The older boy was picked to go to Raton and compete in the 4-H Nationals for smallbore, so the family borrowed two 3-P guns (Anschutz and Win.) they also bought an Anschutz for the Silhouette portion of the match.
Since (due to interesting 4-H Rules) he can't return to 4-H Nationals in the Smallbore Discipline (been once) he is switching to Air Rifle. Depending on the air rifle match, he borrows an NRA coat, an international coat, adds and removes barrel weights, and adjusts his trigger pull. Our local matches include USA Shooting, NRA smallbore, 4-H (rules vary per match), and CMP. This is just for Rifle. We also shoot Shotgun and Pistol, but we won't go there on THIS POST.
I guess I have a bigger beef than just the ISSF and their pants. Does anyone else out there have this type of problem????
Mike
Wichita KS
mschroeder5-at-cox.net.48577.48533
Hi
I just picked this part to make a new comment on, based on one of my students and family's experiences. The number of smallbore, precision air rifle, and sporter air rifle rule books is overwhelming to the new competitor. The so called light rifle, and 4-H rules are really of no help to any slightly serious competitor. The family owned a 10/22 and the boys, aged 9 and 14 took a 4-H air rifle class. They then purchased a Daisy 499 BB Gun (at least that works across the board), and an Avanti Valiant. The older boy was picked to go to Raton and compete in the 4-H Nationals for smallbore, so the family borrowed two 3-P guns (Anschutz and Win.) they also bought an Anschutz for the Silhouette portion of the match.
Since (due to interesting 4-H Rules) he can't return to 4-H Nationals in the Smallbore Discipline (been once) he is switching to Air Rifle. Depending on the air rifle match, he borrows an NRA coat, an international coat, adds and removes barrel weights, and adjusts his trigger pull. Our local matches include USA Shooting, NRA smallbore, 4-H (rules vary per match), and CMP. This is just for Rifle. We also shoot Shotgun and Pistol, but we won't go there on THIS POST.
I guess I have a bigger beef than just the ISSF and their pants. Does anyone else out there have this type of problem????
Mike
Wichita KS
mschroeder5-at-cox.net.48577.48533
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Larry Sawyer
Re: A coaches view, if anyone cares.
Yes, I share your beef. And it's quite tasty, I might add.
Sorry, I couldn't resist that. The variations on a theme that you encounter in NRA vs. USAS vs. "Blue Book" 3-P air are not that bad-- it's all just variations on a theme, which is position rifle shooting. Teach that, and the kid can shoot in any match. 4-H, though, is a complete mess, though it may be getting a little better.
In 4-H, rules vary from state to state, and I think many states have actually written their own rules!
Your job as the coach is to pick one standard under which you'll teach the game, and then teach the differences too. it can be done-- kids are great at learning.
LS
: Let's all just shoot in t-shirts under the NRA light-rifle category. That way no one has an advantage and no one gets his back blown out from shooting standing.
: Hi
: I just picked this part to make a new comment on, based on one of my students and family's experiences. The number of smallbore, precision air rifle, and sporter air rifle rule books is overwhelming to the new competitor. The so called light rifle, and 4-H rules are really of no help to any slightly serious competitor. The family owned a 10/22 and the boys, aged 9 and 14 took a 4-H air rifle class. They then purchased a Daisy 499 BB Gun (at least that works across the board), and an Avanti Valiant. The older boy was picked to go to Raton and compete in the 4-H Nationals for smallbore, so the family borrowed two 3-P guns (Anschutz and Win.) they also bought an Anschutz for the Silhouette portion of the match.
: Since (due to interesting 4-H Rules) he can't return to 4-H Nationals in the Smallbore Discipline (been once) he is switching to Air Rifle. Depending on the air rifle match, he borrows an NRA coat, an international coat, adds and removes barrel weights, and adjusts his trigger pull. Our local matches include USA Shooting, NRA smallbore, 4-H (rules vary per match), and CMP. This is just for Rifle. We also shoot Shotgun and Pistol, but we won't go there on THIS POST.
: I guess I have a bigger beef than just the ISSF and their pants. Does anyone else out there have this type of problem????
: Mike
: Wichita KS
Rifleman-at-tcinternet.net.48580.48577
Sorry, I couldn't resist that. The variations on a theme that you encounter in NRA vs. USAS vs. "Blue Book" 3-P air are not that bad-- it's all just variations on a theme, which is position rifle shooting. Teach that, and the kid can shoot in any match. 4-H, though, is a complete mess, though it may be getting a little better.
In 4-H, rules vary from state to state, and I think many states have actually written their own rules!
Your job as the coach is to pick one standard under which you'll teach the game, and then teach the differences too. it can be done-- kids are great at learning.
LS
: Let's all just shoot in t-shirts under the NRA light-rifle category. That way no one has an advantage and no one gets his back blown out from shooting standing.
: Hi
: I just picked this part to make a new comment on, based on one of my students and family's experiences. The number of smallbore, precision air rifle, and sporter air rifle rule books is overwhelming to the new competitor. The so called light rifle, and 4-H rules are really of no help to any slightly serious competitor. The family owned a 10/22 and the boys, aged 9 and 14 took a 4-H air rifle class. They then purchased a Daisy 499 BB Gun (at least that works across the board), and an Avanti Valiant. The older boy was picked to go to Raton and compete in the 4-H Nationals for smallbore, so the family borrowed two 3-P guns (Anschutz and Win.) they also bought an Anschutz for the Silhouette portion of the match.
: Since (due to interesting 4-H Rules) he can't return to 4-H Nationals in the Smallbore Discipline (been once) he is switching to Air Rifle. Depending on the air rifle match, he borrows an NRA coat, an international coat, adds and removes barrel weights, and adjusts his trigger pull. Our local matches include USA Shooting, NRA smallbore, 4-H (rules vary per match), and CMP. This is just for Rifle. We also shoot Shotgun and Pistol, but we won't go there on THIS POST.
: I guess I have a bigger beef than just the ISSF and their pants. Does anyone else out there have this type of problem????
: Mike
: Wichita KS
Rifleman-at-tcinternet.net.48580.48577
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not flying off the handle
Re:Free Speech & Comments on Rule Changes
: I guess my posting regarding the proposed change in clothing rules piqued the moderator. Did I get it too close to home when I mentioned the commercial aspect in all of this??? Thanks for letting me know that Free Speech DOES NOT EXIST ON THIS SITE.
Is that your comment down at the bottom of the Jackets & Pants Issue thread? (the one below this one?)
.48621.48566
Is that your comment down at the bottom of the Jackets & Pants Issue thread? (the one below this one?)
.48621.48566
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Len
You are right 100%
It's unfortunate that none of the rules really jive between the different organizations. It would be GREAT if there was a clear "upgrade path" for young shooters in the US and worldwide.
Take a young male shooter starting out in Boy Scouts (as an example)
If the Boy Scouts had a program that when done or when sufficiently advanced enough in skill, the shooter could easily move to an NRA program. At such time as that shooter outgrew the NRA program, he could move onto, CMP, ISSF or USA Shooting...again rules, equipment, gun specs and the various diciplines all having common spec even so far as targets, equipment lists/loads/requirements, qualification levels, awards and match layout/finals.
It seems there is a bit of a "turf war" on the extreme end or more likely a lack of communication between the various groups as to what's in the interest of the shooting sports over the sovereignty of the varrious organizations.
It would be nice if a kid could get in a particular dicipline and the rules and equipment specs don't change if moving from one organization to another.
.48627.48577
Take a young male shooter starting out in Boy Scouts (as an example)
If the Boy Scouts had a program that when done or when sufficiently advanced enough in skill, the shooter could easily move to an NRA program. At such time as that shooter outgrew the NRA program, he could move onto, CMP, ISSF or USA Shooting...again rules, equipment, gun specs and the various diciplines all having common spec even so far as targets, equipment lists/loads/requirements, qualification levels, awards and match layout/finals.
It seems there is a bit of a "turf war" on the extreme end or more likely a lack of communication between the various groups as to what's in the interest of the shooting sports over the sovereignty of the varrious organizations.
It would be nice if a kid could get in a particular dicipline and the rules and equipment specs don't change if moving from one organization to another.
.48627.48577
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Mike Schroeder
Re: A coaches view, if anyone cares.
: Yes, I share your beef. And it's quite tasty, I might add.
: Sorry, I couldn't resist that. The variations on a theme that you encounter in NRA vs. USAS vs. "Blue Book" 3-P air are not that bad-- it's all just variations on a theme, which is position rifle shooting. Teach that, and the kid can shoot in any match. 4-H, though, is a complete mess, though it may be getting a little better.
: In 4-H, rules vary from state to state, and I think many states have actually written their own rules!
Hi
Our problem isn't really in teaching how to shoot, it's telling the kids what they're going to shoot, and what they can wear while doing it. Right now all of our shooters are shooting Daisy 888's in Sporter. AS I understand it, this pretty much guarantees that they won't be getting a scholarship. We were just contacted by a man whose shooting room got re-appropriated and he has nowhere to shoot his 4-5 precision guns (darn), but so far that's just guns, not jackets et all. I'm pretty sure we'll let HIM come over and play....
Mike
Wichita KS
mschroeder5-at-cox.net.48630.48580
: Sorry, I couldn't resist that. The variations on a theme that you encounter in NRA vs. USAS vs. "Blue Book" 3-P air are not that bad-- it's all just variations on a theme, which is position rifle shooting. Teach that, and the kid can shoot in any match. 4-H, though, is a complete mess, though it may be getting a little better.
: In 4-H, rules vary from state to state, and I think many states have actually written their own rules!
Hi
Our problem isn't really in teaching how to shoot, it's telling the kids what they're going to shoot, and what they can wear while doing it. Right now all of our shooters are shooting Daisy 888's in Sporter. AS I understand it, this pretty much guarantees that they won't be getting a scholarship. We were just contacted by a man whose shooting room got re-appropriated and he has nowhere to shoot his 4-5 precision guns (darn), but so far that's just guns, not jackets et all. I'm pretty sure we'll let HIM come over and play....
Mike
Wichita KS
mschroeder5-at-cox.net.48630.48580
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Jay V
Re: You are right 100% (Sporter / Precision 3P air rifle)
: It's unfortunate that none of the rules really jive between the different organizations.
:(snip) It would be nice if a kid could get in a particular dicipline and the rules and equipment specs don't change if moving from one organization to another.
One of the best examples of cooperation between the organizations is sporter and precision 3P air rifle competition. The NRA does have a seperate rule book, but it is very similar to the 3P Council rules (CMP, USAS, 4H, Legion, etc).
Unfortunately 3P air rifle is not an upper-level event (NCAA, Olympic), so a shooter must move to 3P smallbore or regular air rifle to really move up. Air rifle in college and above is shot in the standing position only.
3P air is still an excellent way for a junior to compete for a long time without having to change equipment.
Jay Vergenz
AIAC
IL
jverg-at-att.net.48637.48627
:(snip) It would be nice if a kid could get in a particular dicipline and the rules and equipment specs don't change if moving from one organization to another.
One of the best examples of cooperation between the organizations is sporter and precision 3P air rifle competition. The NRA does have a seperate rule book, but it is very similar to the 3P Council rules (CMP, USAS, 4H, Legion, etc).
Unfortunately 3P air rifle is not an upper-level event (NCAA, Olympic), so a shooter must move to 3P smallbore or regular air rifle to really move up. Air rifle in college and above is shot in the standing position only.
3P air is still an excellent way for a junior to compete for a long time without having to change equipment.
Jay Vergenz
AIAC
IL
jverg-at-att.net.48637.48627